MAKE TIME FOR LIFE EXPERIENCES to Grow as a Person and Unlock Opportunities w/ Michelle Woo

Transcript

[00:00:00] Michelle: Firstly when it’s safe to do so, be in an office, but also write about and cover my own community. Write about the people who are really my neighbors, like write about what’s happening here and going out and experience, experiencing the world around me a bit more rather than simply seeing it behind my screen. I don’t know what’s going to make us happy or not, like that, that’s such a, yeah, it’s such an impossible question to answer like will this makes me happy? But you probably can answer the question, will this enlarge my life? Well, will this expand my world?

[00:00:44] Amardeep: Welcome to the Mindful and Driven Podcast, where we help you to not lose sight of what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Michelle Woo. She’s the editor of Forge, the Medium publication all about self-help and self-development. She’s had a varied history as both a journalist and an editor and she even published her own book called ‘Horizontal Parenting: How to Entertain Your Kid While Lying Down’ which received rave reviews. In her role as an editor in Forge, she’s read hundreds of thousands of articles by people trying to help other people to grow. She has to look at them and work out what’s really going to make a difference and what’s actually going to help the reader which makes her a perfect guest for my show.  Since this interview is recorded, she has now left Medium and is now the head of the travel section at the Los Angeles Times.

 I hope you enjoy today’s conversation.

[00:01:36] Welcome to Mindful and Driven Michelle. It’s a pleasure to have you here.

[00:01:39] Michelle: Thanks so much for having me, Amar.

[00:01:40] Amardeep: So how I know you is because you worked with me on Forge and you were the editor for multiple years, and when I was coming up as a writer, it was always the place where I would get into, where I wanted to publish and share my work. And for people not familiar, Forge is all about self-help and personal growth and you are the key person in there to moderate and curate in terms of all the people sending in their ideas and you had to decide what’s gonna be best for the audiences. What’s going to help the most people. Along the way was there any advice that you saw quite, come up quite frequently that you really disagreed with any thought that wasn’t helping people?

[00:02:16] Michelle: Anything that was pure, like hustle, hustle, go big or go home. I recently saw this great tweet that said, so if I don’t go big, does that mean I get to go home? And I really liked that because I mean, so much of the culture is just like, be the best you could be. Like. I mean, yeah, we should definitely be our best, but at what cost? Like, does that mean working till you know, the wee hours of the morning? Working at the sake of your mental health, of, of your sleep, of your sanity, of anything that was just pure, like climbing the ladder. I just wanted to definitely for Forge take a more empathetic approach, a more like balanced approach to self-help and personal development. I think that was kind of like a pure, pure hustle, I would say wasn’t kind of our jam.

[00:03:20] Amardeep: Yeah. And I think what I find quite often is that a lot of people give that advice and sometimes it’s almost to justify to themselves because they’re working crazy hours and they’re ignoring their friends and they’re neglecting their relationships and they need to be able to prove to themselves, and if other people can believe them, that it’s all worth it because the hustle is worth it and being successful with all that matters. And sometimes I wonder if there’s people that, they’re writing that article really for themselves to tell themselves, or to lie to themselves in some way that what they’re doing is okay, when they’re sacrificing their health and their sacrificing and the mental health. And sometimes it’s almost a circle where there’s people who have that frame of mind, who then write those kind of articles or write or share those kind of stories. And then the other people in that circle, then see that and like, yeah, I’ve got to do that as well. And sometimes can be really toxic, as you said, and it’s not empathetic. It’s not thinking about different people’s circumstances.

[00:04:12] Michelle: Right. Right. Yeah. I definitely agree and I think that’s kind of the way I thought early on, like the way you live a life is you set a goal, like you set a goal and then you mold your life in a way that could help you achieve that goal. But as I’ve grown older and have, I have two kids and I just like have a bit less bandwidth for that mentality, I really learned that a better way or the way I would prefer to live my life is to imagine the ideal life that I want to live, like imagine my ideal day from start to finish, like this is how I want to live my life and then find a way to work. Like have my work fuel that day, rather than the other way around, like, rather than working to fulfill a goal, having like, finding a way to just make enough money or have enough resources to support that day I want to have every day.

[00:05:21] Amardeep: In the past. Is that ever a time where you felt really far away from that ideal day and you’re working hard, but when you’ve thought about it and sat down, wait, why am I doing this?

[00:05:33] Michelle: Yeah, I will say, yeah, so I was the parenting editor at Lifehacker for a few years, and I really loved the job. Like I loved writing about parenting and parenting hacks every day. I was an editor, but also like the lead writer for the section, and it was fun because I got to be myself. I got to use my writing voice. Like I got to have fun. I got to write about what I knew, which was well, not necessarily what I knew, but what I wanted to explore, which is how to raise children have so many questions. I got to talk to great experts about everything. From, I don’t know, potty training to like how to teach your kids to be kind. I found great value in it, but I think I got to a point where I was writing more about parenting and in this writing world and in this reporting world more than I was actually parenting my kids, and I try to just, yeah, fit my family life into this perfect narrative, but the whole balance wasn’t there, and I feel like I just got to a point where I had written as much as I could, and I finally just needed to step back and like actually do the thing, like do like the, be the mom, be the parent. And yeah, it was like a little bit of burnout and just feeling like I’ve reached the maximum I’ve reached.

[00:07:07] Amardeep: Was that a subject realization? Would it take a bit of time where you felt that it wasn’t quite right? You felt that you’re going down the wrong path and then you change course, or was there a sudden moment that was like, I don’t want to do this anymore, and you look for something else?

[00:07:19] Michelle: I think it was, yeah, it was gradual. I don’t know. Sometimes I wish that as writers, this great, great line I heard by Amanda Palmer, she’s a singer songwriter, part of the Dresden Dolls, she says that as creative people, we should have inhale years and exhale years. So exhale years are when we produce produce produce, we create the thing we want to create. We’re like doing it. We’re writing we’re we’re like in the zone, but then, we also need inhale years, which are years where we could just observe and live and like taken, taken life live life, so not only, not only for the purpose of like having content later on, but just, yeah, just to maintain like a balance. I think that that’s like a really interesting way to look at it and I wish that I could live life that way. It’s hard when you have like, you can’t really like, maybe we can, I mean, maybe we’re rethinking everything, but traditionally you can’t just like have a job for a year, take a year off, like have another a job for a year, take a year off. But like ideally there should be some sort of built in breaks. You know what I mean? Like there, I would love to see that. I would love to live my life as a creative that way.

[00:08:43] Amardeep: I think something people often think about sprints. But the problem is it’s sprint after sprint after sprint. There’s no gap in between. And I think that’s something that’s missing from like a lot of projects or the way people look at life is yes, you can have a different sprint, but then you need to have the other period of like reflection afterwards. Right? And that’s what the slower years are, and it maybe it’s not a year at a time, maybe it’s a few months or maybe it’s a few weeks at a time, or maybe within the same week sometimes for some people, if they can focus work for a few days and the rest of the time then relax. And I always think about that as well in terms of, how do you create that kind of built in rest time? Because often rest is where your best ideas come from.

[00:09:26] Michelle: I agree.

[00:09:26] Amardeep: Where you zone out, you look at the bigger picture, you’re able to appreciate the world a bit more. And then you get those great ideas.

[00:09:33] Michelle: Exactly. Yeah, definitely. I think like the most productive people, they know how to put white space on their calendar for the week. Like they block off chunks of time where they’re like, no meetings can be scheduled here. Like no random doctor’s appointments, like nothing. This is my time to have space to walk, to think, to write, to just have it be like a blank page.

[00:10:00] Amardeep: After Lifehacker, you went on to other roles and you were working at Medium for quite a while. And now you’ve got a new role right? At the LA times. And is there anything about your kind of lifestyle that you want to change while you’re at the LA times compared to when you’re at Medium? So now you’ve got this opportunity, I guess, to make a change where changing jobs gives you that moment of pause and you think, well, is this the routine I want, or is this a different routine that will be better? Are there any things you wish to change in that regard?

[00:10:28] Michelle: LA times is I believe it is a bit more like the traditional newsroom where I’d go into an office, I’ve done a lot of different things, but yeah, I’ve freelanced before, so I’ve definitely created my own schedule at times, and so I’m not sure how much I’ll be able to do that going forward, but the reason why I was so drawn to the LA times, we were chatting a bit before, was that, so I’ve been working remotely for about nine years, like ever since my daughter was born and I’ve worked for various companies, and most of the time my colleagues were on, in different times zones. I’ve been here in this like little office all day, I’ve definitely missed being among humans and the LA times, like, I think the pandemic has really shown me how important it is to rely on my community, on my neighbors and working at the LA times a place that’s local, I am really excited about the opportunity to firstly, when it’s safe to do so, be in an office, but also write about and cover my own community, right. About the people who are really my neighbors, like write about what’s happening here and going out and experience, experiencing the world around me a bit more rather than simply seeing it behind my screen. And so that’s something that I want more of in my life. So there’s this great quote in Oliver Berkman’s last column for the guardian, where he was a columnist for a very long time, and he writes, when stumped by a life choice, choose enlargement over happiness. And I, yeah, I just really love that. I really love, because we don’t know what’s going to make us happy or not like that, that’s such a, yeah, it’s such an impossible question to answer like, will this makes me happy? But you probably can answer the question. Will this enlarge my life? Well, will this expand my world?

[00:12:45] Amardeep: We were talking before about how you’ve done the opposite of what many people have done and what many people experienced in the pandemic because you worked for nine years from home and many people are at the beginning of that working from home or flexible working experience who might think, oh, it’s amazing for different reasons, and what’s interesting is that you want to go back to the other world again, because you realize how important community is and how much those add value to your life. Obviously, I think you started working from home because of the first child and now like you’ve realized that, well, that was good for a time. Now you’ve got a different experience you want to try. For people who are working from home now, what kind of habits and things did you do that helps you to find balance during the normal working day?

[00:13:33] Michelle: While working at home? Yeah, something that a lot of us did at Forge and just at Medium in general was we encouraged each other to take walks during the day, and so on slack, we would put up a little like walking, walking person on our avatar, and so that, I thought that was really nice, just show like, oh this person is taking a walk right now. Like I should do that at some point too. Yeah, doing that definitely allowed us to come back with a bit more clarity for the rest of our days. So that was great. Some other habits, I would say, just starting the day, I mean, like, I was never great at starting the day with like a, you know, ritual or like a morning routine, but I know that on the days when I did do like certain things, like I did feel better, like in the mornings those days when I would write for, I would try to make myself just freewrite for three pages and it could just be anything I was thinking about like just a big brain dump that on those days when I was able to sit myself down and make that happen, like, I felt like my day was better and clearer. Also on days when I, like cheesy to say, like, try to make myself feel grateful for the things I had or just recall like certain moments of my life that I was grateful for, that really helped. And also something called like three to thrive, just writing down like the top three things that I really needed to do, no matter what. Those were my three to thrive items and doing that like really gave myself focus.

[00:15:17] Amardeep: Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:15:51] And obviously you wrote this book while you’re working at the same time and that’s been released now. And from my understand, it’s all about parenting and well, you can explain it better than I can. What’s the book about, and how did you find time to do it during your day?

[00:16:03] Michelle: So I have a book, my first book out it’s called Horizontal Parenting, how to entertain your kid while lying down. And it was an idea that I first had while I was working at Lifehacker. I had written an article called, how to entertain your kid while lying down, and an amazing thing happened where a book editor stumbled upon my article as she was Googling, like, I guess her daughter was home or she was homesick with the flu and she still had to take care of her daughter, so she was Googling how to entertain your kid while lying down, and she stumbled across my article and she reached out and was like, Hey, this would make an amazing book, like what do you think? And the rest is kind of history, but I did write it a lot during the pandemic. Well I was working at Medium, but I really have to give great credit to my husband who would take the kids out of the house on weekends, like Saturday morning, so I could write. If I didn’t have that support system, I definitely wouldn’t have been able to do this. And so I really think just being transparent with the support that we all have is really important and like helping others feel, like, there’s a reason why they, like, if they too don’t have those same supports, they might feel like they, them, there’s something wrong with them. Like why aren’t they able to achieve certain things? So I think we really just do need to share what the privileges that we have and like one of my one privilege that I had was having my husband.

[00:17:47] Amardeep: There a Tweet that I saw the other day, which is about how I got funding for my startup. And then it said, I took cold showers at 5:00 AM, I run 10 miles every day, I network, and then the final quote was, and my dad is a venture capitalist. Exactly what you said. It’s like sometimes people can always put emphasis on the lessons that everybody can use, but it’s really important to give that context of you had help, and there were people around you who enabled you to do that. And I think sometimes what’s interesting as well is that, it’s really important to try and get help and to try and look for people around you and support, surround yourself with people who can support you. because if he thinks that people are doing it alone, then they can feel shame if they feel like they need help, or if they tried to do it while juggling everything. So I think it’s really important what you said there, to say, yeah, I had help. Like, it’s really important that other people were involved because they allowed me to do my best work. And if there’s anybody out there, who’s like, oh, I want to write a book but there’s no chance I can do it, or I can’t do my job without things. Think about like, how other people are doing it, do have help. And it all works out. Like is anybody, anything you can do to give yourself those pockets of time.

[00:18:57] Michelle: I’ve seen various calculators, like what is one hour of my time worth like, so should like, is it worth it to outsource housecleaning or just various chores and responsibilities that we often think like, like, of course we have to do, or like I think like there’s definitely this cost benefit and analysis that we could do with everything.

[00:19:21] Amardeep: I think sometimes what people miss out of that equation as well is the clarity you get from having less tasks. So even in pure monetary terms, you can add things up, but if you’ve only got three things to do in a day, rather than seven things, then you can do these three things better because you have the context with so much. I think it’s something to kind of factor into that analysis of when you’re looking at the cost benefits is, if I don’t have to spend 10 minutes doing that or having a break doing that, could I get in a better flow state? And then the other hours I have, I can use more productively.

[00:19:53] Michelle: Yeah. I love that.

[00:19:54] Amardeep: And I just think that’s something which people can forget like, oh, buy can’t afford this because maybe because you’re spending that money or you’re getting people to do something for you, it means that the things you are doing already can expand so much, like you said, and that will cover you. So, it’s not a straight equation in some ways, there are some exponentials in there and there’s funny and divisions that going on as well. Like at the moment, well, you aren’t going back to the office just yet, but what are you working on your balance at the moment? What’s something you’re trying to solve?

[00:20:30] Michelle: I would say, I mean, yeah, I have a bit of time before I jump into my new role. I want to get a better handle on my inbox. That has always been, it’s always been something that I feel has been crushing for me and something that I just avoid, like, I I’ve signed up for way too many newsletters and I definitely need maybe a separate inbox or something for that, like these promotions. So that’s something I’m definitely struggling with. I’ve seen some good systems that I want to implement. I don’t know if it’s inbox zero or what, but you like if it’s, if it takes you five seconds or less to do, you reply right away. If it’s going to take you more, you like reroute the, the email to a certain box, like to do today, to do this week boxes. This is probably very elementary for you, but I’ve always kind of struggled with, with emails.

[00:21:31] Amardeep: So I had the same problem and what I’ve done recently is that Inbox Zero, where the only things that are in my main email box are things that I actually have to do something for so at the moment, I’ve got three emails in my inbox and those are the things where I need to reply to them. And there’s an action for me. Everything else in the archive was in different folders and you can research and find those emails again, but to just open my email box and only see three emails, it just feels really good. And there’s some [unintelligible] you mentioned there as well. I’m trying to remember. So with in terms of like replying to people and with the newsletter, so what I do with newsletters, is that we’ve groups like Gmail, you can do the plus. So after your email address, before the at symbol, we can put a plus, then I put plus newsletter and I use that email address and then a system, or like a rule in Gmail that means that anything that comes into that email address with a newsletter in it, goes to a separate folder. What happens is I never read any of these newsletters. I think I’ve got like a hundred unread emails in the new listed folder, but one day I’m bored or if I’m looking for something inspirational, I can just flip through those, but it stops it from going into my main email box because there my main email box is a bit more structured and organized.

[00:22:52] Michelle: That’s so good. So what are some of your folders?

[00:22:57] Amardeep: Oh, is that how I do the folders? So I’ve got about 70 in my accounts, and that helps as well because there’s one just for meeting emails pretty much. There’s my personal one, which has like my delivery and my orders for food and things like that, that go into there. So they’re not work. It’s like more personal related emails. Then I have the business email account and that’s one of which I’m much more protective over and I work out which folders to go into. But how you do the folders is, I actually have one photo called literally, Cool, and then another one called Meh. So when some, kind of opportunity comes in and wherever it’s exciting, I put it into one of those two folders.

[00:23:36] Michelle: That’s hilarious. It’s amazing.

[00:23:39] Amardeep: I think the problem is if anybody’s listening to this and I haven’t replied to you in about three months, that’s probably cause I put you into a folder, sorry about that. But that’s the system that works for me, just a quick decision because sometimes if you’ve got too many folders, then it’s mental energy to try to work out what folders to put things into. So I have clients, I have folders for different clients, and that way it’s easier because I know exactly what it’s going to go to. I have folders for admin because I used to have different folders for admin depending on the company. But then they were just way too hard to maintain, and I never actually went back to those folders. And I think that’s one of the things we always think about when you’re doing an email system or folder system. If you never opened some of these folders, then you can probably put those folders together. And a lot of the time, if we’re going to try and find something you’re going to search and then it doesn’t matter the folder’s name any way, so I think being overly organized with email can sometimes make it a less sustainable way to manage yourself.

[00:24:36] Michelle: I might, I might steal Cool and Meh.

[00:24:39] Amardeep: What else is there at the moment? You’re, when you’re going back to the office again, is there anything that you think in terms of lifestyle that you want to change or you’re looking forward to as well.

[00:24:50] Michelle: Yeah, I think when the pandemic hit and so many people started working from home, what they really missed was that they didn’t realize they missed was the drive, like that transition moment. Yeah. It was just a moment to prepare your mind. Even, yeah. Even if you’re you’re listening to a podcast is kind of like that ritual that got you into work mode versus home mode, and when you lose that, it’s really disorienting, right? Like, especially if you have kids, like the moment I shut down my computer, there’s like children asking me for juice and you know, snacks, and you’re just like, wait, like your, your brain is still in a different place and it’s hard to be present. And then I get like all flustered and like, so I am looking forward to, I would have a small commute just to take that time to think about the next thing. Like, okay, now, now, like I’m full time, like I’m fully here with my kids. Like, okay, now I’m fully here at work.

[00:25:58] Amardeep: I do believe that the commute is underrated because once I lost [unintelligible] before it used to be I take a train to work and on that train, like you said, it’s me waking up because I’m not awake when I leave the house to go to work, but it gives me that gentle period where I kind of can do I want, and what I do is use that time to read because it’s that [unintelligible]. I can’t do any work even if I wanted to. I knew some people try to use their laptop, and they’re sitting there on the underground, but that was a nice period every, all the time where I knew that, especially in London, because it’s underground, so you can’t take calls, you can’t do that kind of thing. With my time like, I’m out of the world, nobody can disturb me. I can just lose myself in a book, and even if it’s a drive, it could be, you listen to a podcast you love, and you get that time to just consume something because you want to consume. And I find it quite difficult now from working for myself and working at home, is that so behind the camera right now, that’s my bed. So it’s, I wake up in the morning and straight away there’s my desk and my office, and office space and I’d really love it. So what I’m going to try and do, at least over the years, get my own office where I can go there, leave my laptop, leave my camera equipment, leave my lights, all of that stuff there, and then when I go home, that’s home, that’s just life and really have that better separation because I struggle with that balance of like, I don’t want to be working all the time. But if my office is in the two meters away from my own sofa, it’s very difficult to let go.

[00:27:32] Michelle: It’s so hard. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that’s really nice to get a separate space, but I feel like even if you’re not able to do that, just, just being able to like flee your house, the first thing in the morning, if you can go grab a bagel or something and then come back, like having that, having that detachment, like, I think that’s really, it’s really powerful just to like enter your office. Okay. Now I’m sitting down and like now I’m not at my desk. You could have, it kind of serves the same, same purpose as the commute, right? Just getting out of your house and coming back.

[00:28:11] Amardeep: One thing with that could work for some people, as well as if they’ve got a friend in the local area and it could be they go for a walk with their friend in the morning and that just wakes them up. It gives them a nice chat. It takes their mind off work. And then when they come down to start working, then they just focus on work, and it’s, they’ve had a bit of a social interaction. They’ve had a bit of exercise, and that can work for some people too. Honestly, that’s better now with the restrictions hopefully being lesser where you can spend more time with people.

[00:28:38] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I like that a lot. And I do notice that on days when I like get out of my house and come back, like I feel a little, little bit more refreshed and I’m like, okay, like now I could go to work just, I guess the same way as we put on clothes and get out of our pajamas and which I only sometimes, I couldn’t like, I feel like my going out clothes versus my stay-at-home clothes are becoming more and more similar, so.

[00:29:05] Amardeep: What’s one mindset shift you think people listening today can make that will make a positive difference their lives?

[00:29:10] Michelle: Think about your death. Think about the question, what if this all goes away? And sometimes when I’m extremely frustrated with my children, if I feel like there’s too much whining, I kind of get it. I kind of try to shift my brain is thinking like, what if this is the last whine? Like I could immediately feel myself loosen up like, I feel like, Just such yeah, like more adoration toward my kids, just calmer, feeling more present, and I think that that’s a not a morbid, like, it sounds morbid, but it’s a pretty powerful mindset shift that anyone could do at any moment. Like when we’re feeling really overwhelmed or frustrated, just feeling, yeah, just saying like, well, what if this person that I’m frustrated with, or this job that I’m overwhelmed by, or this house that’s so messy, like what if that thing like went away and you automatically like switch, switch your mind to like a mindset of gratitude rather than frustration.

[00:30:27] Amardeep: It’s been a pleasure talking to you today Michelle. Where can people listening today hear more about you and what you’re up to?

[00:30:32] Michelle: Yeah, it was just such a pleasure talking to you too Amar. They could find me at my website, michellewoo.com. There’s a link, if you’re interested in Horizontal Parenting, my book. Also find me on Instagram @woopics, Woo P I C S or Twitter @MichelleWoo.

[00:30:55] Amardeep: So the final question is, what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently?

[00:31:01] Michelle: I started making things more like I started doing beads with, with my daughter, like just making necklaces and I just made this really cute mask chain, and it took me quite a while, like a couple hours because these little beads are so tiny, but I feel like just working with my hands, doing something that like I thought it was really colorful, and now like whenever I wear this mask chain that stores people comment on it and they’re like, oh, I like your mask chain, and I feel like that small thing has brought me a bit of joy.

[00:31:38] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes.

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.