Transcript

[00:00:00] Nilesh: I went and studied with Rangan Chatterjee, many of you know Rangan. They started to look into something called lifestyle medicine, and that absolutely fascinated me. My eyes were just opened. My eyes were open to the effects it has on our immune system to how it’s the pathway to joy, to how it motivates you, how it prevents anxiety and depression. We miss the essence of what it is to be alive, to be joyful, free and to feel loved, because guess what? We all want to be our best. Your best may not look like the cultural expectations of what society says. We’re all going on this journey, wherever it is that we’re going, you know, your work is your greatest vehicle for your personal growth. You know, if I was to die tomorrow, would I be proud of myself for what I’ve been, what I’m doing, how I’m trying to serve others, how I’m trying to help?

[00:00:49] Amardeep: Welcome to Mindful and Driven podcast, where we help you to decide what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Doctor Nilesh Satguru. He’s a high performance coach, medical doctor, and speaker. In his coaching, he blends the science he’s learned from his medical career with compassion to teach people how to be the best they can possibly be, but also the kindness they can be too, and the most compassionate to others. Like many of us, he put so much pressure on himself when he was younger and went through all the right steps, became a doctor, but he realized that that pressure was crippling him and he rediscovered compassion which makes him who he is today and he’s able to help CEOs, executives, and high performers across a huge range of different industries. It was a really insightful conversation. Let’s go into the show.

[00:01:40] Welcome to Mindful and Driven podcast, nilesh. It’s a pleasure to have you here. 

[00:01:43] Nilesh: Thanks so much for having me Amardeep. 

[00:01:45] Amardeep: So how we met is we went to the same event by a previous guest Simon Ong, his book launch, and we didn’t actually talk about [unintelligible] there, but then we’ve been following each other on Instagram for a while and you reached out to me and we met after that and it’s like, great. Like I love the way you think about the world and especially marrying the science from your career as a doctor with also your life experiences and the things you’ve struggled with in your own life. And like, along that journey, what’s some common advice you’ve listened to, or you’ve heard that you disagree with and you think people are getting the wrong idea?

[00:02:17] Nilesh: Yeah. Thank you so much for this question. And it’s such a pleasure to be here. I’ve got so much gratitude to speak on this podcast. And hello to all the guests. So one piece of advice, I think the life changing thing for me has been going on the path of compassion. And it’s this misnomer, misperception, this bullshit belief that compassion is weak and that it’s a sign of pity or it’s unambitious or it’s lazy. And actually there’s a huge amount of personal experience of coaching stories and also of scientific evidence that that says otherwise. 

[00:03:03] Amardeep: And can you go into that a bit more, where did you used to believe that compassion was weak in the past? And did you change your mind over time? 

[00:03:09] Nilesh: Well the truth is, I didn’t think I really knew what compassion was and it’s really funny saying that because I trained for 15 years, I mean, 15 years I’ve been in the medical profession, and we spoke about sympathy. We spoke about empathy. We didn’t really speak about compassion. And I was reminiscing about this the other day. How did I get into compassion? Well, through a lot of personal struggles with my son, becoming a father, feeling ashamed like I was a bad father because he had developmental and behavioral challenges, and I think I found some of the Dalai Lama’s books very serendipitously and I read about compassionate and my eyes were just opened. My eyes were open to the effects it has on our immune system to how it’s the pathway to joy, to how it motivates you, how it prevents anxiety and depression. Now I’m not going to present it as a panacea. I don’t believe anything is. And that’s why I quite specifically, my niche is compassion and high performance, because it’s the marriage of these two concepts. But yeah, I don’t believe I fully knew what it was. And then when I started to discover it, even as I started to read about it, my belief that it was weak probably stopped me from fully embracing the path of compassion. 

[00:04:31] Amardeep: I read about this recently. I think there was a big story in BBC the other day, where I think it’s in particular for midwives and how they talk to patients with struggling with fertility. And there’s some medical terms being used, for example, like incompetent cervix or, failed pregnancy or things like that, and they use these terms in front of their patients, and they weren’t necessarily considering that’s that’s the proper term for it. Right? That’s the medical term, but the effect it had on the patients, because it made it feel like it was their fault, rather than it saying, like, this is something that’s happened to you, that we can then fix, we can then work through, it was more like your cervix isn’t competent, which obviously for somebody whose in a very vulnerable state, it’s not very, like something you want to hear. And do you feel like in your medical career, especially in the early stages, that kind of scientific kind of cold way of looking at things was encouraged as well, where you don’t necessarily, I know for example, where this idea that if you get too compassionate to your patients, then if something goes wrong, then it’s obviously harder to then deal with because you’ve got that bond and you take a bit more personally. So do you think maybe, you didn’t practice compassion as much before because you needed that almost a defense mechanism. 

[00:05:46] Nilesh: Well, I think now it’s really important Amardeep, to discuss the differences between empathy and, compassion, because I definitely, for a lot of my career, even after I started to learn about compassion, what I was actually doing was sympathy and empathy. So sympathy is when you are physically moved by other people’s suffering. We can go into more detail, but essentially you’re physically moved. You see somebody drowning in the lake, you jump in, in the lake with them and you wave your arms up in the air. You’re struggling with that. And certainly I’ve been in that situation as a doctor, and there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s very touching. Empathy is intuitive awareness. Okay. So really interesting. It requires effortful thinking. It requires imagination. It’s what makes us human. It uses an area of our brain called the inter cortex. So you actually put yourself in other people’s shoes. And the interesting thing about empathy is that it doesn’t always have to be about suffering. So marketers for example, are very good empathizes. It’s not always about suffering. Compassion is showing an awareness of someone’s suffering. Showing an agreement with the meaning of their circumstances and then taking action to relieve their suffering. So the big difference here with compassion is that you are doing something about someone suffering, so it takes away this hopelessness, this feeling of being moved by the situation. It taps into our innate helper’s high. So actually we know from brain studies and I can go into more detail about this, but we’ve all known that feeling when you’ve seen someone suffering and you’ve just listened and it’s felt amazing to help that person just for the pure joy of helping them not expecting anything in return. That’s a key bit. So to kind of relay back to when I was a doctor, two things that I was doing differently was number one, I was actually and this is, you know, being completely open, I think it’s important for me to be vulnerable and share these things, but I would say a lot of my early career in medicine, I was expecting to receive something from the patient, whether it was, oh my god, you’re the best doctor ever, or thank you so much, or I still had that expectation. And the second thing was was that I, sometimes I wasn’t taking action to relieve their specific suffering. I was taking action on what the textbook said, and this is, this is a really important point. And I know people listening to us to be like, oh yeah, my doctor didn’t listen to me. Didn’t hear me. Didn’t really take into account what was going on. And I hope that makes sense. 

[00:08:33] Amardeep: Yeah, it definitely does. And do you feel like once you learn more compassion and you started working with them more yourself, that obviously it bled into all areas of your life, not just your work and being a doctor, also your relationships and with your like kids and helping them to grow and develop and even your friendships, like where do you think like, compassion has really helped you in strengthening some of your relationships?

[00:09:00] Nilesh: Yeah. Well, there’s one story in particular and I mentioned my son already, and I mentioned this. So I’ll go into a little bit more detail, but it was back in, it’s been, 2019, 2018, and we’d known for a while that my son, Freddy was a little bit different. He would scream unexpectedly. He wouldn’t make eye contact. He was slightly delayed in his social development. And as time went on, it progressed with inattention, with behavioral troubles. And I remember one day in particular, I took my son out to the park and it was the winter in the UK. It was cold and it was muddy and it was raining. And he, as he, as he does, he wanted to kind of run across the field when we were about to go home. And without really understanding him, I picked him up and he got really upset and he ran, he ran off and he fell and slid in the mud and he was covered in mud. So I picked him up out of the mud and I took him into the car and he was screaming. If anyone has a child who’s not neurotypical, they’ll know what I mean by this. I mean, he screamed for quite some time. And I got back home after that and I just sat and I cried in my kitchen. I just didn’t know what to do. I thought, God, I’m the only person who’s suffering with this. And do you know what was really crazy about this is what I was thinking about was, was me, how am I going to cope? How am I going to have a child with these kinds of struggles? How, and then also it was my perspective of what are we going to do if he doesn’t cope at school? All of these things. And I had this kind of, if you like transcendental out of body experience, when I realized, but surely I’m not the only one who’s experiencing this. And in that moment I found compassion because that’s at the, that sits in the essence of compassion that we all have challenges, we all suffer as humans, and maybe our circumstances are slightly different, but every one of us has experienced guilt, blame, shame, grief, fear, sadness, loss, and so through that, I then started to take action and I started to read up. Okay, what are the other children parents’ doing with children who have these struggles? I started to employ the strategy. I started to read more books. I started to learn about the brain and become fascinated with the brain. And goodness me, he improved so much over the course of around a few years. He’s at mainstream school. He’s doing well now. So that relationship got significantly better because of the commitment to compassion and essentially personal growth. You know, this is the power, this is the power. This is what we all are here for. When I’m, when I’m coaching people, you know, they say Nilesh, I want to make 20,000 pounds a month, or I want my business to grow by this much. And I say, okay. And then what’s next? And they say, well, then I’ll be able to go on a holiday. Okay. And why do you want to do that? Well, then I can actually spend some time with my family. I said, how about you do that now? . I think we missed the point and I was one of those people as well, that we missed the essence of what it is to be alive, to be joyful, free, and to feel loved. So this is how Compassion’s affected my relationships and as well, there are a lot of stories I’ve got in my coaching clients’ relationships as well. 

[00:12:19] Amardeep: What made you start the coaching side of things? Was it because of the effect that you like compassion had in your own life? Where did that kind of start from that new business?

[00:12:28] Nilesh: Yeah, it’s a great question. So, you know, I’d love to say like there’s some kind of Hollywood one moment, but the reality is that I was very, you know, I followed the status quo for life and I went to university, I studied hard, I followed the rules, I became a doctor, my parents were really proud. I managed to somehow get my dream job right out of becoming a GP where I bought into a practice. But then quickly, I realized that it wasn’t what it, what I had envisaged. And I couldn’t help people in the way that I wanted with my medical training. About four and five people, they had problems that were stress related, related to the mind. So I started to delve deeper and I started to look into something called lifestyle medicine. And that absolutely fascinates me. I went and studied with Rangan Chatterjee, many of, you know Rangan and that was amazing, but in learning about lifestyle medicine, again, it led me deeper and deeper into the mind and how we only engage with difficult habits because of our own internal resistance to what is, so alongside that I was leaving my GP partnership and I was being coached. And this is often the way why, how people find coaching. I was being coached through the leadership academy, an HS leadership academy. Serendipitously, she reached out and said, my amazing coach and said, look, you seem really interested in coaching. Would you like to train? And that’s how I started on my path to coaching. Of course, it’s been a much longer path than that to get to what I’m doing now, but I would highly recommend it. If anyone’s thinking about it, I would highly recommend getting a coach, if you have any dreams, hopes, and desires that you are going towards and just learning more about the industry.

[00:14:28] Amardeep: Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:15:04] What, like in your coaching training, surprised you of things that you thought maybe you were doing that wrong earlier in your life? Cause obviously part of coaching is all about asking the right questions rather than telling people what to do. Was there any other things like that, which really surprised you that were really effective in helping people that maybe you hadn’t learned in the past and you hadn’t been using those techniques when you were younger? 

[00:15:28] Nilesh: The first is the lamp post metaphor, which is there’s so much value and it’s actually very difficult to do, but people don’t need to be fixed, they need to be understood. And one of the most powerful ways you can help someone to be understood is to be a non-judgmental open guide for them. And some people listen to that and go, well, that sounds really easy. It’s really not because you have to come completely out of your own head and be completely present with the person at hand, put away all of your past limiting beliefs, which is why actually I believe anyone who wants to be a coach, it’s essential that you get a coach and that you go very deep into your own work. You can’t be fully present with someone if you are relating all of their stories to yourself. Some of that’s natural as a human, but the more you you practice. So that’s the first lamp post metaphor. The second thing is coaching, you’re right, it isn’t about the answers, but it’s about helping people see something that they can’t see. And this is such a beautiful moment when it occurs and often it occurs outside of the session. But my role as a coach is not to be a guru, but it’s to be a guide, to guide people, to unleash the veil of what they believe to be true and to see a new path. And then the third one, which I struggled with for a long time is to challenge them. People only want to be challenged when they are in a compassionate space, when they feel connected and listened to and heard. But people love to be challenged because guess what? We all want to be our best. Now your best may not look like the cultural expectations of what society says. Your best may be raising, you know, a farm with chickens and a family of like four amazing kids. That would be, if that’s your best, that’s beautiful. That’s amazing. And in fact, some of my clients have been like that and that’s a wonderful thing. But we all look for our innate potential. And again, compassion helps you do that because once you fully accept yourself, as Carl Rogers says, then you can truly change. 

[00:17:41] Amardeep: So did you get coaching yourself before you started coaching other people? And what did they open up in you? What did you learn about yourself from that coaching? 

[00:17:49] Nilesh: Wow. Yes. So I’ve invested dozens of thousands in coaching. I’m somebody who over time, the number one thing it changed is I became someone who started to live with more integrity. And I think that that’s really important to say, because if we’re being truthful with ourselves, that most of us and me too, I was living as a reactive pinball to life. I was not conscious of how my thoughts, words and actions led to my results. So the most important thing it taught me was to practice and live with integrity. It also taught me how scared I was about a lot of things, and I still am fearful of things. Of course. I mean, anyone who says that they aren’t is I believe is not woken up to their truth. We all have fears. But when I went through coaching and the multiple times I’ve gone through it, it’s been about changing my relationship with what I’m resisting. You know, I think that people have a real, another kind of BS belief that joy is a diagnosis of inclusion. We want our lives to be joyful, right? Everyone would agree with that. Joyful, loving, free, but actually joy is the absence of any resistance. Let’s think about this for a minute. When you get on holiday, I say, and you know, you get on that sun lounge, you’re there on holiday. What’s that first thing you do? Ah, you sigh. You release. There’s no resistance to anything that’s going on. You don’t want anything to be different. So coaching really helped me change my relationship to that to see, okay, what am I resisting here? How can I release? How can I lean into it? Embrace it. And you know, what a powerful skill, because the resistance comes, you know, and as you climb the ladder, it’s still, it comes thick and fast, right? Even more. So if you can change the way you relate to yourself, you’re on an amazing journey. 

[00:20:00] Amardeep: Looking at that now, because you obviously made quite, [unintelligible] changes to your own life in the last few years, what’s something you’re working on now? Like how are you trying to improve yourself now? Cause obviously the journey of self-improvement never really stops. Even with your coaching and you’re helping other people, what are you working on internally? What’s the different targets you’ve set yourself or areas where you want to improve?

[00:20:24] Nilesh: Ah, thank you so much for asking this because like I say, I’m somebody who really, I think it’s absolutely paramount that I practice what I preach. So, first thing I’ve recently changed is I blocked out a whole one day a week, purely for personal growth in white space. And you being a solopreneur, you know, like how difficult that is. This is where I could be doing all the other things like working on my website, increasing revenue, but never forget, I never forget this analogy. There’s no point you riding a bike with a half blown up tire when you could be spending the time blowing up the tire and going much with, with less danger and much quicker. And so I make a lot of time to read, to do courses, to go deep within myself, but the specific things is at the moment, energy. I’m working my energy in quite a lot of detail. I’m working on my clarity as well in quite a lot of detail. I mean, clarity’s a funny one. I think clarity, I remember when I was looking to get an engagement ring for my, for my now wife and I started to read about diamonds and, you know, there’s four things that a diamond is graded by the clarity, the cut, et cetera, the carrot and the one grade in difference in clarity, the value of the diamond goes up exponentially. And I believe that’s an amazing metaphor for life. It’s true. Those that have real clarity in their message, clarity in who they are, they are people that that can impact more people. So, yeah. Clarity and energy are things that I’m particularly working on at the moment.

[00:22:08] Amardeep: I love what you said about clarity, cause it’s something that I’m working on myself right now. So the day we’re recording, it’s actually the one year anniversary of me leaving my job and becoming a full-time creator, entrepreneur, whatever you want to call what I do now, and I gave myself this first year to experiment, to do lots of different things. And I have definitely done lots of different things, which is a bit too much often. And now I’m really focused on is that clarity of like, what exactly do I want to do? And how can I remove some of the different things that are distractions. Maybe I do enjoy doing them, but the way I’d say it as well is like, let’s say you enjoy dancing. If you do 12 different types of dance in the same day, you’re going to be exhausted. Even though individually, if you did one a day, you’d enjoy it. And I think that’s the stage I’m at right now is that I enjoy all of the things that I’m doing, but there’s just too many of them. And they’re then bleeding into each other where I can’t be present in what I’m doing. And that clarity is something which I think is so important as you mentioned, because if partly I think is that it’s insecurity, it’s ego of letting go of the things which is hard because it’s tied up in you. Right. Of if you do everything, then you can say that you do everything called because then you can give that feedback to yourself. Oh, I did all of this this week, but actually in reality, it might be better to cut some of that stuff and say, I did this and I’m really proud of what I did. The quality of what I did is really like exceptional and I’m really happy with this. And I found sometimes by taking on too many things, I’m then starting to be less proud of my work. I was like, actually I need to take a step back. And it’s been, so obviously in the last few months you’ve stopped being a practicing doctor and you’ve gone full time into coaching and to try to help people in a different way. How difficult was that decision for you to step away from doing both things at the same time?

[00:24:08] Nilesh: I’m actually going to ask you a question first, cause I think it’s really important. I want to ask you and I will answer this, but how do you decide, Amardeep, what to drop? Do you have a process, a decision making process that you go through that helps you, you know, make that decision, that cut? 

[00:24:29] Amardeep: So something I’ve been working on recently. So one thing I have is using Notion. You can do it on paper. I just have a single brain space and I’ve got all the different things that I’m working on. And I put a number of brains next to them of how much of my mental energy it takes up. And I then, so say for example, I’m working on a course right now. That course at the moment is five brains, because I know that that’s going to move, massively move the needle because once that course comes out, I can send that to the different people I work with. The people I’ve interviewed in the past, and it enables that scalable income and allows me to help more people, which doesn’t have such a big effect on my time, because so much of my work at the moment is very much, I need to give effort to it, so I want to look at those ways of how can I help more people without putting in more effort each time. So that’s something which I think is really important. At the same time. I’ve got other things which, maybe have a high number of brains set out five, like let’s say it’s three out of five brains, but then, okay. It’s like, why am I spending that much time with that? I don’t like that doesn’t matter to me in the long term, it doesn’t align with my goals. So I’m looking at each thing on this list and assessing it based on, do I want to be doing this in year’s time or is it just something I’m doing now, because I feel like I need to? So that’s one question I’ll ask myself is, do I still want to be doing this in the future? 

[00:25:50] Nilesh: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:25:51] Amardeep: Or am I just doing it because it’s there, because I’ve won that contract or I’ve won that client. Am I just doing it? Because it’s already my calendar. The other one is whether or not it aligns with the other things, because if, for example, I’m doing a course and I’m doing a coaching that’s related to that course, then that combined energy is actually one stream, one river. So I’ve used this example before about people often focus on, for example, passive income, but having many different streams. In reality, if you can focus on the river that feeds those streams, that’s usually the better idea. So you can have, if you get really good at one particular area that will then feed those streams. If you focus on the streams at the end, then your brain is in a million different places, which is very hard to take. So I’m looking at, I want to focus on this area and this area. So if I’ve got two main rivers and they will connect to each other. If I’m doing something, which is totally unrelated, how much energy is that taking away from me? And do I enjoy that enough to keep it there? 

[00:26:56] Nilesh: Yes. 

[00:26:56] Amardeep: For example, with dance, I love to dance. Me dancing, isn’t affecting my ability to coach or my abilities to do other things. It’s a totally different skill set. It’s totally different type of energy, but let’s say for example, I’m writing articles for somebody which doesn’t really align my goals. It’s taking, it’s siphoning off something from that river, away from my goals, away from what I want. 

[00:27:21] Nilesh: Yeah. 

[00:27:23] Amardeep: So those are, I think, the two main questions I ask myself, well, three main things is how much energy is it taking out of me? Is it aligned with the main pillars of what I want to do? Is it related to that subject? And then the third thing is what was my third thing? It was, if it’s related, if it’s something in a year’s time I want to still be doing? Or is it just transient? And the transient ones, some of them are hard to let go because they pay money or they’re fulfilling some underlying need that I have, but they’re often just short term. So getting, being able to get rid of that is quite a difficult thing, but I’ve realized that’s what I need to do for the sake of my own mental health and mental wellbeing. 

[00:28:04] Nilesh: I think for me, the purpose of your life is to live a life of purpose. That was Robert Byrne that said that, and it’s so incredibly true. We’re all going on this journey, wherever it is that we’re going. You know, your work is your greatest vehicle for your personal growth. Every step that you take teaches you more about yourself. And what I mean by that is, if you are going on a journey, let’s say for me, it was medicine, and I felt like I wasn’t learning as much about myself as I would do by going on the journey of coaching, and the other thing for me was that the world doesn’t need, so again a lovely Howard Thurman quote. Don’t ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive. Because the world needs people who have come alive. And this is so true. So when I was making that decision to go on sabbatical for medicine, there were a few questions that went through my mind, the first one, and this is going to be a very powerful one, especially if you have a close relationship with your parents or loved ones, was I read in a book and it said, what would you do differently if your father was dead? Incidentally, two months later, two months later, my dad did die quite unexpectedly. Well, he was chronically unwell, but it was unexpected. And the first thing that came to mind was I would go on sabbatical for medicine, which showed me that I was, it was one of these kinds of attachments that I had because I didn’t want to feel like I was letting down my father who had always wanted to be a doctor himself and was so proud that I had become a doctor, but it wasn’t making me come alive. It wasn’t, I still loved medicine, but the desire to impact people in the coaching world was so much higher. That was the first thing. The second thing was about what would I love? What would I absolutely love? Now, I think people get a bit confused with this word love. And me too, you know, for me love, isn’t just, oh, this everything is amazing, everything’s perfect. You know, I love my kids and they’re difficult sometimes, you know. But I accept them and I want them to grow and I want us to grow together. So love is acceptance and growth. It’s unconditional acceptance and growth. Was I prepared to unconditionally accept medicine? Was I prepared to do that? No. I mean, the answer was that coaching was giving me more of that unconditional acceptance and growth. And so that was the other reason. Last of all it came down to values and my four values was compassion, openness, growth, and challenge. And I believe that going on this journey again, I like to kind of live from the end. You know, if I was to die tomorrow, would I be proud of myself or what I’ve been, what I’m doing, how I’m trying to serve others, how I’m trying to help? Yes. Would I have been disappointed in myself if I’d stayed in medicine and I probably would, because life is so precious and our time here is limited. And so, you know, it’s a paradox that we have. We say, you know, when, when I’m 40, I’ll start that mission. When I, when I’m, you know, got a few more dollars in the bank or pounds in the bank, I’ll go on that dream holiday. I’ll spend more time with my spouse and my loved one. But people forget that there’s such uncertainty about the future. And you know, when you really live into that, you like for me, my eyes have been opened and I think, well, you don’t really know what can happen tomorrow, so it’s important you live today so that you amaze yourself and you’re proud of what you do. 

[00:31:59] Amardeep: Looking forwards now, what are your goals or what are you trying to work towards with the coaching and what you’re working on now? Cause am I right in thinking as well, your wife is working with you too. 

[00:32:09] Nilesh: Yeah. 

[00:32:09] Amardeep: You’ve become a little bit of a family business. 

[00:32:11] Nilesh: Yes. Yeah. So my wife’s, it’s absolutely amazing that that’s happened because I never would’ve, again, we just don’t know what happens in the future and we’re doing, we’re, there’s been incredible growth in the way that we interact with each other as well, which has been amazing. Yeah. So with the coaching, I’ve got kind of three main wings as many coaches do. On one side, it’s the coaching, elevating entrepreneurs beyond their best. And really it’s impacting people who are looking to serve others, looking to go inwards so that they can give outwards, and that can be a leader, an executive, an entrepreneur, a creative. So it’s a broad range of people, but they’re all willing and committed to going in so they can serve out. And I’m really, really enjoying it. I mean, for me, it’s about coaching people that I believe are inspiring. And that’s very important to me. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that they have loads of external success. It just means that they are somebody who’s on that path of personal growth. So that’s the coaching wing and I’ve got my one-on-one clients, which I’m connecting deeper with at the moment. And really I’ve got really enjoying having these long one year contracts, amazing relationships with them. The other two areas are speaking, which I’ll be developing a bit more as the time goes on and writing. Now with these things, as many of you guys will know, listening to the pod, I’ve decided to make my primary focus of interest coaching for the time being. Cause I believe it’s where, there’s the, I’m able to deliver the most transformation to someone and provide the most value. And so, although I have these streams going on in the background, just like you were talking about Amardeep, I’m on purpose, I’m not focusing as much on the others. So that I can, you know, build that element a little bit more. It’s probably important to say the biggest mistake I’ve made in my entrepreneurial career so far is trying to run before I can walk. And believing the business was older than it, than it was. I’ve run two group programs who’ve been successful and brilliant. I’ve had one-on-one clients, you know, I’ve had some really wonderful things happen, but also I’ve overcommitted, which I know that you can relate to. I’ve been overly optimistic, which is, you know, is definitely something that that’s possible in entrepreneurship. And so I’m paring back now and I’m just sticking to, like, you spoke about just a few goals, but trying to go really deep with them so that I can serve people in the most impactful way, help them become compassionate high performers, basically.

[00:34:47] Amardeep: So if there’s one mindset shift you think people listening today should make, that would make a really positive difference to them, you could only pick one, what would it be? 

[00:34:55] Nilesh: Choose compassion, focus on connection. It’s mantra I’ve been saying to myself for a very, very long time. There’s one mindset shift, it’s to choose compassion for yourself, for others, for the world. Why? Because, you know, when you really pay attention to your emotions, you’ll realize that more often than not that we are in a state, that’s one of challenge, suffering. If you can learn to master that, if you can choose compassion for yourself in those moments and compassion for others, it’s the pathway to joy and then connection. Now, I love speaking about the science. I, hopefully it won’t bore anyone, but I really love speaking about the science of connection cause it’s truly amazing. So an 80 year study from Robert Waldinger that’s come out of Harvard shows us that, that having good quality relationships is a thing that relates most to longevity of health and happiness, but our instincts and society and culture tells us more and more, more bigger, bigger, bigger, earning more, booking our calendars full, not taking the time, the truth is, the reason why it’s important to learn how to be productive. Is so that you can spend time on things that take time. You know, you can’t rush a bath time with your child or a date night with your partner or, you know, finding the right partner. You can’t rush those things. So choosing connection is the thing that’s going to make you healthiest and happiest. and we also know from Martin Seligman and Ed Diener that the top 10%, the top 10% of happiest people in the world, again, have the closest social relationships. So if you’re struggling, if you’re in a difficult time, if you’re feeling overwhelmed, stressed, burnt out, choose compassion for yourself, for others, and just focus on openly connecting with people, and through doing that, you know, I believe that that’s the most powerful mindset shift you can make. 

[00:36:59] Amardeep: I’ve really enjoyed talking to you today, Nilesh. Where can people listening, maybe who aren’t familiar with your work yet? Where can they hear more about you and more about what you’re up to? 

[00:37:08] Nilesh: Thank you, Amardeep. It’s been a real pleasure to speak to you too. It’s been been awesome. I’ve enjoyed it a lot. So you can find me on Instagram. I’m most active on Instagram @drsatguru. That’s D R S A T G U R U. Also, www.drsatguru.com. Very simple and straightforward. Yeah. I would love to hear from people. I’d love to connect. As I said, do drop me a message at the, share with me about your hopes and dreams. I’ll ask you about your hopes and dreams, and don’t forget to choose compassion and focus on connection. 

[00:37:39] Amardeep: So the final question I ask everybody. So the end of the podcast on a positive note is what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently?

[00:37:49] Nilesh: Oh my gosh. Really simple things. I believe the best things in life are free. Absolutely true. Just literally playing in the garden with my kids the other day where, you know, I was just being silly with them in the garden, running up and down and just, it was a beautiful day, and being very present in that moment. It’s so simple and straightforward and yeah. How many times in the past would I not have been present in that situation? Oh my gosh. So many times. That’s one thing that brought me joy.

[00:38:25] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes. 

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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Welcome to episode 56 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 56’s guest is Dr. Nilesh Satguru. He’s a high-performance coach, medical doctor, and speaker. In his coaching, he blends the science he’s learned from his medical career with compassion to teach people how to be the best they can possibly be. Also, the kindness they can be and most compassionate to others.

Like many of us, he put so much pressure on himself when he was younger and went through all the right steps to become a doctor. But he realized that pressure was crippling him and he rediscovered compassion, which makes him who he is today and he’s able to help CEOs, executives, and high performers across a huge range of different industries. It was a really insightful conversation.

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels. 

• You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health:  https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Find more about Nilesh: https://www.drsatguru.com/
• Follow him on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drsatguru/
• Follow him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-nilesh-satguru-954b44157/

Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• The BS belief (2:30)
• Empathy, sympathy, and compassion (4:35)
• We all suffer as humans (8:45)
• Lifestyle medicine (12:36)
• A non-judgemental, and open guide (15:24)
• We all have fears and the journey of self-improvement (18:05)
• More on clarity (22:38)
• Decision-making (24:45)
• Your work is your greatest vehicle for your personal growth (28:37)
• Serving people in the most impactful way  (32:41) 
• “Choose compassion, focus on connection.” – Nilesh (35:38)

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Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

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Book here

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The post How YOU can be a high-performing leader w/ Nilesh Satguru first appeared on Amardeep.

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Welcome to episode 55 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 55’s guest is Mohammad Tahir also known as “mo_t_ivate”. He’s a network engineer at Heathrow Airport and also a star on TikTok with nearly 200,000 followers. All of his videos are about little interesting facts about airports that you wish you knew but you didn’t know where to find out. 

On the back of this, he’s done many talks, especially in schools because all he wants to do is inspire children to believe whatever their dreams are that they’re possible.

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels. 

• You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health:  https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Mo_t_ivate’s YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/MohammadTaher
• Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mo_t_ivate
• Follow him on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mo_t_ivate/

Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• “What are you going to do with the rest of your life?” (2:00)
• When you like what you are doing (4:51)
• When too much is going on (9:33)
• Taking risks and also being strategic (16:35)
• The transition and the 80-20 rule (20:17)
• “The airport guy”  (29:29)
• The day you start to value yourself (34:42)
• Wait a minute and step back (38:02)

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Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Mohammad: You know, you need to choose your future. You’re thinking, oh my god, what am I going to do with my life? The pressure on is if you have to have your life sorted out at such a young age. I really, really feel like that just limits so much of our potential. Understanding yourself and understanding your identity, that’s what really drives me. Even when I was doing a course [unintelligible], like you niche down to blow up, choose a specific niche, get really good at that, and then at some point you can start to do whatever you want. Due to the stuff that I do on social media, it creates a lot of work outside of work. And really my nine to five, creates my five to nine. I had just come out of like the whirlwind of my life in terms of personal development. Within six months, I had completely transformed my mindset. Some of these things that I’ve learned, some of these things that I now know, I would love to pass on. 

[00:00:48] Amardeep: Welcome to Mindful and Driven podcast, where we help you to decide what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Mo T, also known as motivate. He’s an airport engineer at Heathrow Airport and also a star on TikTok of nearly 200,000 followers. All of his videos about the little interesting facts about airports that you wish you knew, but you didn’t know where to find out. On the back of this, he’s done many talks, especially in schools, because what he wants to do is inspire children to believe whatever their dreams are that they’re possible. I really enjoyed today’s discussion and I’m sure you are too. Let’s get to the show.

[00:01:28] Welcome to Mindful and Driven, Mo. It’s a pleasure to have you here. 

[00:01:30] Mohammad: Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here, actually. 

[00:01:33] Amardeep: It was really great to meet you the other week. I’ve only met you, was it last weekend? 

[00:01:36] Mohammad: Literally? Yeah. 

[00:01:37] Amardeep: We got mutual friends through Hassan and we had lunch together and I heard a bit about your story and I really loved it, so I wanted to get you on. 

[00:01:44] Mohammad: Thanks. 

[00:01:44] Amardeep: But it’s start off with, I’d love if you could tell the audience what’s one common piece of advice that you really disagree with. 

[00:01:50] Mohammad: So one piece of advice that I sort of really sort of really bothers me is when you’re 17, 18, and you’re in college and the careers teachers are all sitting there around you going, oh, you know, you need to choose your future, and this poor 17 year old, I mean, everyone was there one day and they you’re thinking, oh my god, what am I going to do with my life? And it puts the pressure on as if you have to have your life sorted out at such a young age. I really, really feel like that just limits so much of our potential cause at the age of 17, we really don’t know who we are. We don’t know what our interests are. We’ve probably just gone with the flow and followed the crowds for most of our life, and here we are getting put on a spot where they’re like, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? So it’s less of a piece of advice, but more of a situation that I feel like our society’s created, which really doesn’t, just doesn’t help anyone fulfill their life purpose because a lot of people just sign up for something that they’re not really passionate about, but they do it because kind of everyone else is doing it. And they feel like they’re locked into that forever. That’s one of my bugbears when it comes to sort of careers and for young people choosing their careers.

[00:02:50] Amardeep: When did you decide to become an airport engineer? Was it something you always wanted to do? When did you have the idea that like, this is something I’m really interested in? 

[00:02:58] Mohammad: So, I mean, literally honestly, when I was 16, I wanted to be a lawyer. I actually wanted to be a lawyer. It was nothing to do with airport engineering. It was nothing to do with aviation. I knew I liked that sort of stuff, but I had never experienced anything. Right? I was just stuck in the school system my whole time. The first experience I ever got was when you’re in year 11 and they let you go do a work, two weeks work experience, and I joined the law firm and I realized absolutely hell no, I’m not being a lawyer, no matter if you can kill me. I’m not being a lawyer. But then after that, I remember speaking to my brother-in-law and just by chance, my brother-in-law was an auditor for the government at the time. And he was auditing an aerospace company up in Cambridge called Marshall Aerospace, and he spoke to the CEO and told him, you know, my brother-in-law, he kind of is dabbling with the idea of being an engineer. He likes aviation. Do you mind giving him a tour of the facilities? And that’s when I got like a once in a lifetime opportunity to get an entire tour of the facility of this place where they have. They can literally design, build, and fly an airplane all from one spot. And I remember walking into that place thinking, oh my god, like, I need to be part of the aviation industry, because this stuff is just amazing. 

[00:04:08] Amardeep: Have you ever regretted that? 

[00:04:10] Mohammad: No. Not at all. I love it. Honestly. I love it. Like, aviation’s one of those things that like, once it gets in your blood, you just genuinely enjoy it, and the buzz of it, not every, I mean, they, it’s a very cliche thing. Not all two days are the same, but at the airport, like my job is so varied, I get involved in so many different things, so many different projects, there’s no reason for me to regret it one bit, and it’s created a life that I’ve genuinely enjoyed.

[00:04:36] Amardeep: I think it really comes across in your content as well. Because when you think about it, when I heard like what your, what you do and how big it’s grown, you initially think, oh, well, that’s a kind of a strange thing to, sane people to be interested in, but then when you watch it, you just realize how much you like what you’re doing, and I think that’s what draws people in, right? Obviously you’ve got the interesting facts. You’ve got the different bits of pieces of information that people like. I think it’s because you are saying it. If it was just somebody else who was like recalling the facts or reading from a script, we really can tell, like you’re really excited to tell people it, and I think that’s what really makes it engaging. It’s what has built you such a big audience? 

[00:05:11] Mohammad: I think that’s with all things in life. I mean, think about when you were growing up and you were in school and you had that one teacher who was ecstatic by their subject. It’s contagious. Like energy is genuinely contagious. There’s also a TikTok guy who, he literally just, he goes around chasing trains around the UK all day. He’s called Francis. I’m not sure if you’ve seen his content, but literally this guy has grown to like millions and millions of views and all he, he has this like head cam that he just straps onto his head. And then he just goes around and he is train sporting. He’s like, this is the class 4273, and it’s going to go past and he’s so excited by it. And even though I don’t care about trains, I just love watching somebody be passionate about what they do. And I think that’s a common sort of trait. Just in all of us human beings, we like to see people being happy. We like to see people enjoying themselves. We like to see people doing the things that they love. Maybe it’s a part of us like that wants to be fulfilled in the same way, that just craves that when you see it in other people. I don’t know. What do you think?

[00:06:10] Amardeep: I think it’s one of the things I’ve always said, that people at their most, it’s not necessarily what they’ve done or how successful they’re, it’s how excited they are when they talk about it. And you can just tell, I think, or you can see I’m doing it now, right? My hands are going all animated, and I think people naturally do that when they’re enjoying the conversation. Whereas you ask some people and it’s frustrating, one of the things I see when I go to different events and stuff, and people ask you, oh, what do you do? I said, but I’d rather ask a question, like, what excites you? What makes you happy? Because like let’s say what I do. I do like 10 million different things right now, but if I have to explain that to people, it’s kind of a chore, right? And it’s, oh, I do this, I do this, I do this, I do this. Whereas if someone says, oh, what are you working on that excites you? It’s like, oh, like I’ve got this project. And then you start getting into the bit that’s more engaging, right? And every conversation is more enjoyable if the person’s talking about something that they like. And it’s such an easy concept, but I just feel like certain people don’t actually do that. They ask the more boring questions, the small talk questions, like, tell me about what makes you happier. Tell me what you love doing. And I’m going to come away like, more fulfilled from that conversation than if we just talked about the facts or the figures or whatever like that. 

[00:07:24] Mohammad: You know what, that’s something I’m going to take on board because I think I’ve sort of got into the cycle of asking people, what do you do and is out of pure curiosity, but I think the result of it doesn’t, cause a lot of people, the thing that they do, first of all, like you said, maybe there’s more than one thing, and also I think people default that to their day job. Whereas in reality, maybe you don’t want to, they don’t really care about their day job, but actually you just wanted to know something about them. So maybe that question doesn’t actually produce the results that you would want. Maybe, and I think, you know what this reminds me of? I do a lot of facilitation for young people in events, and one of my favorite icebreakers isn’t just tell me about yourself or go around the room and tell me about myself, but it’s actually tell me one thing that made you smile in the past week. So everyone goes around the room and they tell someone else one thing that made them smile last week. And I actually start to realize what makes people smile. Like one person be like, oh, you know what? I was watching the sunset and I was really happy. The other person would be like, oh, I had this really good coffee. And then, you know, straight away, this person loves or enjoys nature. This person enjoys a good sunset. Someone is just like, oh, you know, I was with my child and you know, and then you straight way, you know, that they’re a father or a mother. Just, there’s a lot more telling of someone when they’re speaking about something they enjoy. And then count, you know, compound that with the fact that they will come with the energy. It just makes it so much better. 

[00:08:36] Amardeep: I think there’s a judgment as well that comes with it, right? When you ask somebody what they do in a way, they feel like they’re being judged about what their status is? Are they going to be impressive to the person they’re talking to? Whereas if you just want some that you enjoy, it’s a different conversation. It’s more level, right? Everybody enjoys different things. I think it’s really interesting to find out what other people enjoy, even if I might not be interested in it myself. Sometimes when somebody’s really interested in something, even if I didn’t care about it at all before, then suddenly I’m interested in it, for example, with planes, right? I didn’t particularly care about plane facts, but then I ended up binging your TikTok because it was just interesting the way you were saying it. But even though you do something that you love, have you found like during this process, times where your energy has been low, where you felt like there was too much going? And how did you fix it? How did you manage to get yourself back on track again? 

[00:09:25] Mohammad: I think that’s something that when you do what you love, you’ll always find yourself in a situation where you say yes to more things than you can physically do. Like my job at work is my job at work and I love it, and I take on a lot there, but also what happens is I actually, due to the stuff that I do on social media, it creates a lot of work outside of work. So the way I split it up in my head is the nine to five and the five to nine, and really my nine to five creates my five to nine in a weird way, because they’re so intertwined. But I’ve got to positions where, you know, four of the five days in a working week, I’ve got talks on every single evening, and I’ve got a full-time job where I’m taking on a lot as well. And then in the evenings, I’m packed out either doing a talk at a school or university or a podcast or a, or an event or something that I’m facilitating. And you get to a point where, you just can’t wait to sleep at night and then you wake up the next morning and it’s just go, go, go, go, go. And I really, I know those times are the most fulfilling, but also they really do drain you. They, you know, I, after facilitating an event, for example, if it’s a big crowd and there’s a lot of energy, I know most certainly usually, I go home with a massive migraine. Like that’s kind of something that I’ve learned to just, you know, take on like always have my, you know, my [unintelligible]. It’s kind of just something that I’m expecting. But really it’s, I’m doing something that I find both fulfilling in the process. Yeah, you get to a point where you’re spinning a lot of plates and you end up dropping a lot of them, and that’s unfortunate to say, but it’s true. Like you try and spin as many plates as you can, but you have to realize that you’re a human being at the end of the day, and some things are just genuinely not worth your mental health. Like if it’s about dropping a project or if it’s about saying no to a certain thing or just not engaging in a certain activity, I have been in situations where I’ve just had to simply say no to like a lot of opportunities that previously I would’ve jumped at, but I think to myself, I’m like, what am I going to do? Just like work myself to the ground? Like I need to be like, especially within the creative space, I think for you, and I both understand that your energy is finite, and actually, if you want to give something your full energy, you can’t spread yourself too thin because the quality of your output will be impacted. And when you’re in the creative field, you can’t afford to drop the quality that much. What do you think? 

[00:11:45] Amardeep: Yeah, I’ve experienced the exact same thing where, I don’t think anybody actually knows every single thing that I do because I kind of forget myself a lot of the time, but it’s obviously this podcast, the Entrepreneur’s Handbook podcast, my writing, the ghost writing I do for founders, the courses, the, I also find a lot of my time is actually spending conversations because one of my problems isn’t, it’s as you said, when you love what you do, it’s very easy to let it accidentally kill you, right? If I’m talking to people all the time, I enjoy it, but it’s also quite tiring. And then I’ve also got to do the actual work at some point in the middle of that. And it’s what I’m finding because I’m learning more about myself. So for me, it’s been just under a year now, since I quit my job at the time I’m recording this and I’m learning what I enjoy more. I’m learning that sometimes things that you’re good at aren’t necessarily what you should do because even though you might be able to deliver value, you might be able to charge high prices, the effect that it has and everything else, it drains your energy so much that it makes you less effective of the other things you do. And it’s hard to say no to money. It’s hard to do that. But it’s the right thing for me to do. And it must be the same for you with the different events you go to where sometimes you think, oh, like if I get this event, I can make, I can get a new audience. This could be really great for the social media business I’m building, but at the same time, if you’re tired before you go to event, cause you’ve done three other events that week, you might not show yourself in the best way, and then it’s actually like a diminishing return because you go to that event, maybe less energized. The people who hear you might not be as likely to actually follow you or to find out more about you. So taking that break could actually be better in the long run. 

[00:13:26] Mohammad: Yeah. I find it fascinating what you said that just because you’re good at something doesn’t mean you should necessarily do it. Give me some more context around that. 

[00:13:36] Amardeep: Well, my old job was technology consulting. I did that for seven years. I could, I knew pretty much any project I took on, I would be able to achieve it and deliver the results, but that’s not really what I wanted to do with my life. And it was difficult to make that decision, to stop doing something I built seven years of competency in to do something completely differently now. And there was certain identity struggle, right? Because as you all know, once you get praised for something, you like that. Everybody likes praise. Everybody likes to be complimented. If you know that people are liking what you’re doing, that can be addictive. You get hooked to the client feedback, to the feedback from your bosses, whoever it is, but in the long term, if that’s not what you want to do or that doesn’t really interest you, then that’s just keeping you like hooked in. Whereas actually you should think about is another school that maybe I need to work on, maybe I need to start from scratch, but that skill is something which I really love, and I’m going to want to do that for a longer time. So there was a guy who I interviewed recently, Justin Welsh, and it’s a similar story. He was leading companies to 50 million, like annual revenue. And he was good at that, but he had a panic attack. He was struggling. He couldn’t, like his whole health was suffering. So he started from the bottom as a creator, making absolutely nothing. And now is making a million a year doing that too. So it’s just, I think people need to have this belief that, if you love something, you’re going to work it out. You’re going to be successful at it. And you, some of the things you need to let go are the things that you might already be good at, to let yourself do that. 

[00:15:10] Mohammad: That’s really, really powerful, but it’s really, really hard. I think it becomes harder. I mean, I don’t know what your personal situation is in terms of like family, and I don’t know what John’s was as well in terms of like, you know, his situation in terms of like having dependency and having people that are required, the income, you know, and I think that’s something that I really like resonate with, in terms of, I think Gary Vee had once say where he is like, you know, between 20 and 30 is the time when you take the most risks, and I think the reason why that’s so powerful is because that’s usually the time where you don’t have kids yet, maybe you are not in a relationship as of yet, and actually you are just on your own, and if you completely fall flat on your face, your parents will probably still have a room in their house that you can crash at. I mean, you know, It’s how old are you now? Amardeep? 

[00:15:54] Amardeep: 30. 

[00:15:55] Mohammad: 30. Yeah. So, I mean, you’re still in that, you’re still in that bracket of like, you know, take risks and I think you must have taken that risk just before you hit 30, isn’t it? Tell me about that. 

[00:16:04] Amardeep: That was a conscious thing, right? It was, I always told myself when I was at university by the age of 30, that’s when I’m going to get out and do my own thing, or I’m going to do something I really believe in, but I got dangerously close to not doing it. It was a pure fluke in the way that, I did the creative stuff on the side and that did well. But before that kind of was started to take off, I was adjusting my time sets. So actually, I don’t think I’m going to be able to make the change by 30 because I was so set in my ways. And even then [unintelligible], for me, it’s very difficult to escape that. So you’re obviously younger and you’ve got like a lot more time to go before you get the same kind of stresses that you’re talking about here. Are there any risks that you’re looking at taking on at the moment? 

[00:16:43] Mohammad: Honestly, I think I’m playing it too conservative at the moment. I want to take more risks, but the thing is that I’m also trying to be strategic in the sense of like leverage. The fact that my content and my job are so intertwined, it means that, let’s say I do want to see I’m going to quit my job and do content creation full time. Well then my USP that I use to make my content has just got hooked out the door cause I haven’t got access to the airport anymore. So that’s something that as much as I want to be like, you know what, I’m just going to, you know, take the risk and go into content creation full time. And I think that’s when I need to do over the next five years or over the next four years before I’m 30 is start to slowly transition my content to be more about, yes, what I love, but there’s more than just airports that I love. I’m not just the guy who works at an airport. I love to educate. So while I’m at the airport, I’ll educate about what’s happening at the airport. But actually I love to educate in all realms of life and especially within personal, the space of personal development, spatial, mindfulness, you know, understanding yourself and understanding your identity. That’s why really drives me really, really drives me, just helping people understand themselves more. And I really want to educate in that sphere. So, I mean, Hassan always tells me like, you know, and even when I was doing a course [unintelligible], like you niche down to blow up, so choose a specific niche, get really good at that, and then at some point you can start to do whatever you want, because you’re big enough and people care about you, not just the planes. So for me, it’s like, you know what, using my unfair advantage, what am I going to leverage the most at this point in time? Or the airports are there, but then at some point I don’t need to talk about airports because I actually I’ve built enough momentum that I can start to shape and mold the conversation to actually work really just punches out at me. I think that’s when maybe more risk is acceptable, but I don’t know. I’m really thinking about, I was literally thinking about this yesterday. I’m like, I don’t feel like I’m taking other risks. I want to take more risks, but I don’t know where to start. Give me some ideas. 

[00:18:52] Amardeep: So, one thing that I’m doing right now is quite a lot of my income will come from clients. So what I’m doing is cutting clients because the client money will support me, but it will take up my time away from what I want to do in my own brand. And it becomes like a job, right? Because that’s, it’s good money, what I’m doing there. Like, but that’s a hamster ball. It’s going on the hamster ball producing for clients. That’s not why I quit my job. I didn’t quit my job to go into another hamster ball. I quit my job to create something that I believe in, that means something to me. 

[00:19:27] Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:20:03] You said there about like your motivation is to help people in the future, but why did you start the channel in the first place? What started at TikTok? Was it a strategic decision? Was it you wanted to become like a creator and influencer or was it just like a bit of fun at the beginning? How much did you think about that right at the start? Was it just fun? What was the motivation? 

[00:20:22] Mohammad: So it was funny. There was this like, it went from first gear to second gear during its infancy and it was before TikTok. It was actually on Instagram. I set up a page called mo_t_ivate because I had just come out of like the whirlwind of my life in terms of personal development. Within six months, I had completely transformed my mindset, completely transformed who I saw when I looked in the mirror. And I mean that at a more deeper core level, like I really tried to transform myself and I thought, wow, like some of these things that I’ve learned, some of these things that I now know, I would love to pass on. So I started a page on Instagram called mo_t_ivate where I, where initially I uploaded three things. One of them was a video of me sat up in the tree, talking about sort of life goals. One of them was like a little post, and like two of them would just read like a tweet or a post. And I just sat on that for a while. Like, I didn’t do anything with it. But I knew I had this message I wanted to share, and it wasn’t until I was sat one day with a, with one of my friends called [unintelligible], who I was actually singing with yesterday. And she was telling me, she was telling me, I was telling her about my job and she could see the passion, like, because I loved it. I really enjoyed being in that space. She’s like, why don’t you share this? I’m like really? I don’t, I didn’t really, don’t think anyone will care. She’s like, no, I just start sharing this stuff. So then I transformed that motivate page. I deleted those three posts and I just started putting airport stuff on there. But in my core, I still had this message that I wanted to share. So yes, I geared it towards like the airport, but in the captions, in the early days, back when Instagram was a photo first platform, now it’s just videos. It’s like, I used to write my heart out, but it was all personal development stuff. It was a picture of an airport, but the caption was all personal development. But over time, it sort of evolved to the point where actually I’m educating about airports, but I’m, literally this morning, I was thinking about how am I going to make that transition back towards personal development? So like right now I’m very strategic with my page. I’m, nicheing down to the point where I can get known for something so that I can, you know, I’m using it as a tool, as as an avenue. But by, and it really fills me with purpose when I do this stuff, but even at it’s infancy, it had the vision of, I want to use this to share a real message about personal development to help change people’s lives. 

[00:22:33] Amardeep: So you asked for advice there. So obviously I’ve been through a similar transition at different points where I’ve niched down, I’ve gone broader, and now I have a couple of different brands. And what I’d say is that even how you’re coming across in this interview right now is it’s showing that you’re passionate about the other things too. And you’ve got a following already. What I’d say is just once a week, or let’s say do 80, 20, right? Let’s say 80% as yourself, is about airports. One video week or one video, however often is more personal development stuff. Test it out. See how that does. See how your audience reacts to it. Cause obviously your audience is following you for one certain reason, but they’re also following it because like I said, it’s because you are saying it. So what you want to do is test the waters. If those videos are performing way worse than the other ones, then, okay, you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, think about it differently, but the only way you’re going to find that is by experimenting. If you never test it, you’re never going to know. And it’s the same thing when I started writing. If I never wrote the first article, even though I thought it wasn’t very good, I would never have known that I could go down the path I did. So that’s what I really suggest, and even coming on this podcast, for example. This stuff they might hear, some of the people listening today, they might have never heard of you before. They might not even know you did airports or whatever like that. But like, oh, I like the way this guy talks. So doing things like this, testing out on your own page. You’re going to start to build that audience and see what they like. And it might be a case of maybe your audience, your current audience doesn’t like that stuff. And if that’s the case, you’ve got that hard decision to make where it’s in a year’s time, two years time to be like, do I want to scrap what I’ve got now and create another brand to do what I really care about? Or am I going to focus on something which I love as well and just decide, okay, that’s going to be something for the future. I think at the moment, if you think like deep inside, that’s what you really want to do, then start testing, start experimenting. See what happens because you just don’t know, like, if you don’t give your audience a chance to say whether or not they like the personal development side of things and listening to you talk about that, then you might have the assumption in your head, oh, this won’t work. Oh, this will ruin my status. Oh, this will do this. But you can’t be sure until you test it. 

[00:24:51] Mohammad: Absolutely. I suppose you reassuring, really reassuring to hear that because I have tested it and I have been applying more in the past, less in the current moment that 80 20 rule where I’ve been drip feeding sort of personal development stuff, and so far, it’s been going quite well in terms of the engagement and people really resonate with that message. I guess what’s happened more recently, I say in the past month and a half is by nicheing down really hard, I’ve seen that my sort of the engagement has just spiked. Like it went from like this to like this. I think I more than doubled my followers in like three weeks, because I was just making consistent aviation content. And I mean, I went from like 7,000 to like now 18,000 in literally a matter of a month. Seeing that it makes you go think, oh wow. This stuff, this niche down to blow up thing really does work. And actually, you know what, now that that’s happened, and actually I continue to do that, but that doesn’t stop the once in a week, or, you know, once in a while drop in that tester, just to keep people remembering that I’m not just this. I’m not just airports. There’s more to me than that. How have you found managing all these different branches now? Like all these different other things that you do. How do you manage, how do you find it? How do you find managing that? 

[00:26:07] Amardeep: Oh, it’s difficult. I think what happens with me is that I’m too curious. Right? I enjoy too many different things. I’ve got a broad interest set, which doesn’t necessarily make it easy for you. And there can be some people listening today who won’t give, like won’t care at all at the Entrepreneur’s Handbook brand or the podcast I do there, which is more about how to grow a massive business. And that’s okay, like you can have different sides of your personality and it’s like what you’re saying now, I could niche down further and just pick one of these brands and I would grow faster, but I’m making the conscious decision of that, I enjoy this more, I enjoy having a bit of variety, and that’s the kind of decision you make at different points. It’s like, are you doing it for, [unintelligible], growing as fast as you can, or you just, once you reach a certain point, is it, is this for fun now? Am I doing this cause I enjoy it or am I doing this to grow? What’s quite lucky about you, and the two different branches you have is that you really believe in both of them. So even if you only did one of them, you can still be happy with that. You’re not doing anything against your nature to grow, which is the best way to do it, right? If you are, you see it online all the time, people giving advice about you need to do this to grow. You need to do that to grow. And it comes across as very inauthentic. Whereas what you’re doing is leaning into one part of thing that you really love, and that’s doing really well for you, but it doesn’t mean that other thing is off the table. And you’ve also got to decide, because what you could do is be the aviation guy for the next five years. And like, that’s okay too. It’s the internal conflict that you’ve got, right? About you want to do the other stuff too, and working out like your motivation, underlying motivations, is the why do you want to do the other stuff as well? And if you really answer that question, like keep going down why? Like, where have you answer to that? Why do you think that? And why do you think that? And maybe you can achieve many of the same things by focusing on the aviation brand because you could be teaching people. You could still be helping people in different ways. And that might do really well. And you could still, like, you can still do the other stuff too, but maybe you reach a huge audience for your motivation brand and that can bring you a lot of joy. So you are in a lucky position, right? Because I think whichever one you do, you’re going to smash it. [unintelligible]. You can like always say, yourself being grateful for that. Right? It’s that, I know whatever you do, it’s going to work because like, just talking to seeing your excitement about what you’re doing, that comes across. What really matters now is like, what do you want to do? Because you’re going to be good at both of them, but that’s the next question here I’m going to ask you, is that, where do you want this all to head eventually? Do you want this to be your full-time thing? Teaching people through content? What’s the ambition in terms of like your lifestyle that you want to have, because some people they want to just grow huge and like do the [unintelligible] where in five years time you’re working all hours to get as much as you can get done and you build this massive empire or you either do it so that you’ve got more balance in your life. What’s the end goal for you? 

[00:29:19] Mohammad: This is something that actually part of my brain wants to answer in one way, and another part of it wants to answer in another way. And what I mean by that is part of my brain knows that, you know, I want to, I want to absolutely like take this to the next level. So I’m going to, I’m going to explain both of those and then we’ll see where the happy medium sit. So bear with me as I like embark on this like mental journey myself, like try and combine these things. Cause I know if there’s something I need to do for a while, but I find actually during conversations sometimes best is when I really start to come to like conclusions. So part of me wants to get to a point in my life where I’ve built a brand that’s so powerful in the aviation space that every single time anyone around the world steps into an airport, the first thing that comes to mind is I remember seeing that on Mo’s page and I genuinely become the airport guy where no matter where you go, no matter what airport you step into in the world, somebody, somewhere, is thinking about something that I taught them about the airport, and the key of that is education. Like I want them to be educated about that because I think that what, one thing that I realized when I was in the airport is actually, there’s so many different careers that could be here and you could be a doctor, but have the most exciting job as a doctor in the airport. You could, you could be an electrician, and actually you are in this really dynamic, fast paced environment at an airport, no matter what you choose, you could be a writer, and choose to be in the airport environment. Like every single career that you want to embark on, you can find the role within the airport environment, which is really exciting. So by educating people about airports, hopefully the funnel is that actually people, more people will start to realize that there’s a potential career here. And I would love to have built. I got to a point in my life where I’ve genuinely helped more people realize that actually they can get a job that they love at the airport as well. And by doing that, actually built that brand as the airport guy and off the back of that, I would love to create a life where I’m traveling around the world, doing deals with airports globally, where I’m creating content for them and collaborating with them and signing deals where I’ve actually become like the airport ambassador. Like take me to your airport, show me around, put me all the first class lounges, and let me see what I can teach people about this place, and actually let me teach them, like, I love to educate, but at the same time, I don’t mind having a sponsored deal attached to the back of that, you know. So that’s where my vision goes. And I think actually that can branch out into multiple different parts of the aviation world as well. So everything from like even SpaceX and like, you know, wherever the aviation industry’s going, Virgin Galactic, the space environment, I would love to really just mature in that space as like an influencer who just does what, I love this space and I would love to be like, a genuine, like key person of influence within this space, especially connecting it to social media, cause I understand the power of that. So that’s one branch of it. It’s like, I really want to build that to that point. Now after becoming like an expert within the aviation space, I would love to then after having become the airport guy step off into actually, how did Mo become the airport guy? Well, let me teach you the journey, the behind the scenes, the personal development that I needed to embark on to actually go on this journey, and let me explain to you the lessons that I learned on this journey, and actually start to create that feedback loop of personal development to say, well, if you want to embark on a similar journey, here’s the little, you know, perspective that I can share that maybe can help you on that as well. And I would love to then branch off into like a motivational speaking career off the back of that. And that’s something that I would love to do. So you travel the world, you know, sell out stadiums. My goal is to sell out Wembley stadium. I live in Wembley. I see Wembley Stadium right now. I’m looking at it from my window. I would love to sell out Wembley Stadium, 90,000 seats sold out. And it’s just all about personal development. That’s sort of my long term vision become a speaker and just speak for a living. That’s something that I genuinely enjoy. So that’s one side of my crazy life that I want to create. On the other side, I know that I’m going to have to have a wife and kids, and I’m going to have to like probably settle down and I’m not going to be able to like, go like travel, this stuff, if I have like, you know, a five year old son or a daughter, or, you know, wife and family and commitments and all those things, which are beautiful. And they’re also very meaningful and they’re amazing, but I am stuck in between these two things. I would love to have a family and like a nice chilled family life, but I also want to become this crazy, like traveler around the world, sponsored deals, motivational speaker type. 

[00:33:57] Amardeep: Obviously, like your degree wasn’t really in that kind of area. How did you grow the confidence to do what you’re doing now to speak so confidently in front of camera? Was it natural? Was it, have you always been this way? 

[00:34:07] Mohammad: No, I was not. I was one of the most shy, insecure kids you’ll ever meet. Very, very shy. Very insecure. But I think there was, they got to a point where, the moment, the day I started to learn about personal development and I started to value myself, is the day everything changed. Like everything changed when I started to understand the value I had within, and there was a few moments of positive confirmation of that message that really changed it for me. And it was literally like, I remember, I think it was five or six years ago, I was sat in, actually it was about five years ago. I remember I was sat in a shisha cafe with my mates, and I had just read this really powerful personal development book. And I was just explaining to them the concepts that I had learned in this book. And I still, I’ll never forget this. For 45 minutes straight, all my mates were just sat there listening. 45 minutes. And I was flowing, like I was in my flow state fully. Just explaining these concepts and connecting them to real life and how, like, they’ve just helped me so much. And all of them were just there, like, and by the end of it, one of them was like, bro, you’ve just articulated everything I’ve wanted to say in my life, but never been able to, you need to be a motivational speaker. And I was like, what me? Motivate? Nah, I’m studying aerospace engineering. Like I’m just going to get an engineering job. What are you talking about? Exactly a week later, I was in a restaurant with my friends and the same thing happened where actually he was telling me about the situation he had in his life, and I was just transferring something that I had learned and the same thing. He was like, bro, you need to be a motivational speaker. That was, that was, that was really good. I was like, what do you mean? Like what I don’t, I don’t, that’s not me. And then I was like, you know what, after setting up the page and stuff, I was like, people are telling me that I have this ability to speak. I have two choices. I can either neglect it and let it die. Or I start to invest in it and just see where that goes. And that’s when I started to literally message these random universities and random schools around the country saying, I’m an engineer. I work at Heathrow airport. Do you want a talk about engineering? And I was messaging like engineering societies. So they’re like, yeah, please. When can you come? So then I get my foot in the door using the Heathrow sort of name to be able to actually speak to these students, so when I’m there, I’ll talk to them about engineering, but I also talk to them about the importance of people skills. I’ll talk to them about the importance of mindset, attitude. I’ll talk to them about all the softer skills that make you successful and not just the degree that you have. I just started to get the reps in. Reps and reps and reps and reps, and I’ve done so many talks, I think last year, 2020, I’d done 47 different talks in different places. This year I’m aiming 52, but I’m just trying to get as many reps as I can in it. It was, I was, I remember the first ever talk that I’d done, I was stuttering. I was all over the place. I was, I couldn’t string a sentence together to save my life, the first ever public appearance that I’d done, but over time, I kind of get used to it.

[00:37:12] Amardeep: And you said there about how the lessons you taught your friends when you, from your personal growth development journey, what’s one mindset shift you think, people listening today could make that would really make a positive difference to their lives?

[00:37:24] Mohammad: One of the biggest ones that, like hit me like a truck when I was on this journey was I had never thought about the way that I think. You know, when you think usually you just simply think. You just, you are just in, the way I describe it is, you know when you are playing a video game, like a shooting game, Right? And you have two views that you could use. You can either do like a COD view, which is like Call of Duty where you’re looking down at the gun and you’re like, you’re in the, in the eyes of the player, the first person view. Or you can zoom out and it’s something more like GTA or Fortnight where you’re watching the character run. The thing is that when we think, usually we’re inside the bubble of thought, so whenever the moment of anger comes, it comes and we’re immersed in it straight away. Whenever we think negatively, we tell ourselves we can’t do that, we’re immersed in it instantly. We don’t take that moment where we can actually say, hold on a minute, step back. How am I thinking about this situation? So rather than just think, think about how you are thinking. And I remember the moment I took that step back, I was like, bloody hell, there are some situations in life that I am thinking about this in such a wrong way, where I’m just full of ego and full of like who I think I am, and the things that, the things that just don’t serve me. And I realize that, oh my god, I can actually control the way that I think about things by influencing my own brain. What! Like that’s so crazy. And then wait, what happens when I do that? Well, the way that I think determines the way that I speak, the way that I speak, determines my actions and my actions determine my habits and my habits determine my life. So literally if I change the way that I think, I can change my life. But first I have to do a stand back review of how I think to even start this whole process. And I remember when I realized that I was like, Wow. So to anyone who’s listening at home, like when was the last time you genuinely critically thought about the way that you think, and just know though the way that you think will cascade into the way that you live your life. And if you do a stand back, review on the way that you think, there’s a potential chance that you could change everything. 

[00:39:40] Amardeep: I’m sure many people listening today are kind of going to find out more about you and what you’ve been up to, and they’re probably going to want to see your personal development flip as well in the future, so where should they go to find you? Where should they follow you? 

[00:39:52] Mohammad: So my handles are @mo_t_ivate. So my name is Mo T, and it’s Mo underscore T. Mo_T vate. Or if you just write the airport guy into, as three separate words, so the airport guy onto Instagram or TikTok, or anywhere like that, you’ll be able to find me on there.

[00:40:08] Amardeep: So it’s been great to talk to you today. The final question I ask everybody is, and it’s similar to what you ask the school kids, what’s it’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently?

[00:40:18] Mohammad: One small thing that’s brought me joy recently. I think it was actually yesterday. I was sat in a restaurant and I was catching up with Harrah and I was telling her, I was telling her about a message that I got on Instagram. And it was a message that I got from somebody who had watched my previous podcast. A young boy called Asad. And he was telling me how he explained to me his situation and the way he found himself and sort of the low that he found himself in at one point in his life. And then he told me that one day he reinstalled Instagram. So he reinstalled YouTube. And the first thing YouTube suggested was a podcast that I had done about two years ago. And he watched that podcast and he tells me that his life completely changed after watching that one podcast episode. And I remember reading his message and he was telling me how drastically his life changed after the fact. And there were like tears, like flowing down my face man, when I was reading that. Like I was just so humbled that a video on the internet of just me sharing perspectives could have an impact on someone’s life so profound. And you can’t not feel a real sense of ease and happiness when somebody tells you that they’ve been able to have a positive impact on their life. I think that’s what we’re all here on earth to do is to serve, to give, to help others get to a better position in their own life. And the fact that I was able to do that on a small scale for one person makes me very happy.

[00:41:48] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes. 

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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Welcome to episode 54 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 54’s guest is Karaminder Ghuman. He is a polymath by trade. He’s a headshot photographer, a course builder, a community leader, a writer, a storyteller, and a filmmaker amongst many other things. 

I know Karaminder through the course side and I’ve seen much he’s obsessed with making sure the community is as good as possible and how important that human connection is wherever you go. 

This is a really interesting discussion and it goes to lots of different directions. 

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels. 

• You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health:  https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Karaminder’s Website: https://karaminderghuman.com/
• Follow him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karaminder/
• Follow him on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karaminderghuman/

Keynotes:

Introduction (0:00)

The truth inside the story and conformation bias (1:26)

Treasure relationships (5:51)

Mistakes and failures (8:13)

Setting a target for yourself (16:17) 

Being present (18:47)

Taking care of your mental health  (21:55)

Setting up a system (23:30)

The ideal work week (25:39) 

You have to live life (30:15)

Hug your mum (31:26)

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Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

—————————————————-———————————————

Transcript

[00:00:00] Karaminder: I want to generate time because time is freedom for me. And, you know, new year’s is, again it’s just another, just, it’s just a calendar going on another day. Right. But why is it that we use that time opportunity to reflect? Give myself permission to be happy on the journey, right? Eight hours of work, eight hours of recreation, eight hours of rest.

[00:00:29] Amardeep: Welcome to Mindful and Driven podcast, all about how to chase your dreams whilst not losing sight of what’s really important along the way. Today’s guest is Karaminder Ghuman, who’s a polymath by trade. He’s a headshot photographer, a course builder, a community leader, a writer, a storyteller, a filmmaker, amongst many other things. So how I know Karaminder is through the course side and I’ve seen how much he’s obsessed with making sure that the community is as good as possible and how important our human connection is at wherever you go. This is a really interesting discussion and it goes in lots of different directions. I really hope you enjoy. Let’s get to the show.

[00:01:12] Welcome Karaminder. It’s a pleasure to have you on the podcast. 

[00:01:14] Karaminder: Thank you. Thank you for having me Amardeep. 

[00:01:16] Amardeep: I know you’ve taken a lot of courses in the past and like, you really love having communities, but along that way, you’d have heard so many different pieces of advice from different experts from all over the world. What is something you hear often, that you now disagree with and you think that it takes people down the wrong path? 

[00:01:30] Karaminder: There’s definitely a lot of, kind of advice given for like, oh, you just, you just got to do this. Right. And you’re like, why can’t I do that? Like, that’s the thing that I’m told to do and I can’t do it. And then, you know, the truth is very trite, right? And oftentimes you can give it to somebody else but it doesn’t land, but when you put that truth inside of a story, inside of a lesson, then the person who’s listening to, the story gets to be in the story, gets to become the story, right? And then that way it becomes internalized. This is the way I understand it. How all of our say ancestors and how stories were passed along, and we remember stories, whereas again, the truth is trite. So that’s kind of how I see things as a how, oh, okay, this is the truth, but the method of how to say execute or how to become whatever that truth is requires requires a story, requires a journey, requires a process, and I’m trying to think of something specific. I mean, it could be as simple as, you know, I don’t, as writing every day. Right. And that seems very simple. Like, oh, you should just be able to write every day. Keep it up. Keep doing. Yeah, I don’t. I write when I need to, it’s almost like a just in time learning. That kind of process of like, well, I need to learn this, so I’ll learn it now. Right. And oftentimes I think about intrinsic motivation, you can see how much rabbit holing and side quest were going, but this is important. the intrinsic motivation is one of those core like, values, core truths, if you will, cause without an intrinsic motivation to do something or to learn something you will not. And oftentimes it’s that, and that’s where the just in time learning or just in time doing comes into play and it’s so helpful to understand and respect that, but then you also kind of have to build your life around that, where you allow yourself those pockets, those, that time to be able to skill up in those regards. Probably not specific to the, do I have specific advice or something that I can think of besides like say writing every day? Because a lot of that is I look at okay, just writing every day. Okay. Well what’s, how do I actually get there? Okay. I’ve got to look at how I design my day. What time of the day am I most productive? Like this is the story that I needed to know and go through in order to get to a point of being able to say write every day. And even then, I still don’t write every day. But at least I’ve created the environment and the tools and the support around me, my systems around me to be able to support that. And I didn’t have that before, but when someone just says write every day, that’s an example of something like, uh, maybe I disagree with that, this is why, but I see what you’re saying, but we need to, we need to share the story. 

[00:04:10] Amardeep: And unpacking that a bit. I think when you say you disagree with different device, it’s about how, when people try to make something too simple, because for example, how do you get fit? You eat less and you exercise more. Yeah, that’s correct. But it’s not very useful. Is it? 

[00:04:29] Karaminder: Well, what happens if you have a thyroid problem? Like as I do, and then I barely eat. 

[00:04:34] Amardeep: You see these truisms and people post them online, all that kind of thing about, oh, you just have to do this, and often those accounts can be very popular, saying that kind of advice because it’s that confirmation bias, or people are already doing that, or think they’re already doing that. We then share it and be like, oh, this is so profound. But in that tweet, it’s very difficult to actually get the nuance behind it. So writing every day, for example, I disagree with completely and I’m, well, I say a successful writer, but I’ve been able to build a career based on my writing. I don’t write every day for myself because I write when I’m inspired. I work in a way that works for me. But if you say the answer is simple, if you want become successful, you just need to write every day. People often want to follow that because it’s an easy solution to a complex world. And if you had that kind of experience in the past where somebody’s told you some simple advice that hasn’t worked for you, and it’s taken you like a long time to realize that actually you need to do things differently for yourself.

[00:05:39] Karaminder: I think back to a time where I met a fellow course creator, and he had a course in, he calls it three day weekend, right? Like three day weekend, like this is for people who are working a regular job and they find they don’t have enough time that they want to be able to have three day weekends. The idea being that yeah, you work four days and who’s had a bad three day weekend? Not many people, but the idea is that three day weekends are good and fun. And so when he told me that I’m like, that’s so logical. That makes so much sense. And I was able to very quickly make sure that no one could book me as far as say one-to-ones or even for my photography appointments on Fridays, just so that way I could have three day weekends. And now if I want to take a job because they want me to work on Fridays, that’s my choice. I get to do that, but at least by default, my people get to the automated calendar kind of approach, no one gets to take that time away from me. And what I found is, yeah, I get more time because my wife has Fridays off. I get more time with her. I also get more time to just kind of be a bit more quiet and build because oftentimes like you mentioned, when we are consuming, say even on Twitter and we’re like inspired, like yeah. That’s, that’s what I think as well. Right. It’s great. But what about when we need to express, when we need to write, when we need to put something out there, when do we need to build. Right? And I like that for Fridays. And I went back to him. He’s like, yeah, so many people I tell this idea to, and they’re able to just, they don’t need me. They just, they’re off and running. And his name is Wade Galt by the way, to give a shout to him. And he said that what he’s found is those people who take off and running with the idea that they don’t need his course is because those people understand their values. And absolutely, my values are that I treasure relationships between my friends, my family. It’s the time that we spend together. I treasure, I value that because I want to you know, with the businesses I have, I want to generate time because time is freedom for me. Right? A lot of people feel financial freedom is freedom and that’s, that is free as well. But for me, it’s being able to be present with the people I care about, I love, and spend time. That’s for me. What life is. 

[00:07:55] Amardeep: Was there a time in the past where you were really off balance? Because was the four day weekend switch, was that because you were unhappy? Or was it because you just thought it would improve your life that was already doing pretty well? Was there a time where you kind of had a breaking point in the past? 

[00:08:12] Karaminder: Oh, several. Oh my God. Like, I feel like, what do I say? I say, I don’t know if I’ve got this from anyone or I just came up with myself. I don’t remember, but mistakes are our best teachers. Failures are our best professors. But absolutely the, it’s those, the failures really kind of teach you so much and kind of mold you the way I kind of view life is that we all start out as marble slabs, if you will. And good things that happen to us kind of get a little chip away from, you know, with the hammer and the chisel. It’s just a little chip away, but the negative things that happen to us, the things that really shape us, they are big swings of that hammer with that chisel. They are big swings and especially failures. Failures, almost like you do that one whack and like a big chunk of stone comes right off. Right. And what’s left behind is us, is our character, is who we are. That’s how we learn who we are. We don’t know who we are until we go through life and experience things and kind of see what we are made of. And it makes sense when we use these words, see what we’re made of. Right? And then we’ll, yeah, we’re being chiseled on a marble here, so we can kind of see the shape that’s being left behind. And so many of these. So let’s say for example, I specifically think of, I started an online wine business, selling wine on the internet at the age of 21, and my dad had a wine shop that was where the inventory was from, and no didn’t spend any money on ads or, or even on staff. It was just me and my dad. And that for a few years did, in two years, I think it did, it was starting to do more business than our retail sales. So it was already taking off and then we sold all of that and then moved the family to a different, nicer location. And then I’m like, all right, I did it once, I can do it again. So we built up a new space, a new shop and everything. But you know, bigger, much more of an endeavor, much more of like, this is my vision of how say a wine shop and selling online should be. And then the economy tanked in 2008 and took it all with it, because it was only open for like, open in July of ’08 and the economy tanked in October of ’08. So barely any time to grow. And I always was working so hard because I knew that I just need to get to a, you know, profitable evenness to support my family, for everyone, before I can like, let myself be, let myself be happy, let myself enjoy things like it’s hard work and this is going to set us up. You. Know, us being a family, set us up for our futures. And then when it failed, I was very down, very depressed. I had left school with two semesters left from graduating just to pursue this cause I had a fire for it. And that lesson was, that there is no happiness, say at the end of the rainbow or the end of the journey, the happiness is actually is now. It’s to give yourself a mission because there’s always, we’re always going to be on journeys. We’re always going to be in that journey. We’re always going to be transforming. That’s just who we are as, that’s our nature. But there’s nothing to say that you can’t be happy now. And I know some of you may trade speed, right? For like, well, if I just sacrifice this, this, this, now I can get there two months quicker or whatever you want say, whatever timeframe. The biggest lesson I learned there was give myself permission to be happy on the journey, right? Just give myself permission, and in that way you could be happy like along it because the really the sweetest part is almost the chase, if you will. The journey, the fun destination isn’t actually as rewarding as you think. You just, you accomplish it, yeah. Great. You can celebrate, celebrate your wins. Very important. Even the small ones. That is important. But then, you know, the next day you’ll write back at it. Right? And other things I’ve learned from this is that whenever a goal is tied to a number, just, you know, a million Twitter followers or a million YouTube subscribers, and I make I put a million dollars in the bank account. Whenever it’s tied to a number or the stock or Bitcoin hits, a million something, I’m always going to use the word a million, but what happens when it does reach it? Does your life change? Doesn’t, right? But the motivation that you had to achieve that, like you’re just focusing on this number. This number increases. This number’s changing. Like I just had a birthday. I turned 41. How different is that from 40? Not much, really. Just, you know, from 40 years old, with 364 days under my belt, did that really just suddenly change once I reached 41? No, it’s very much the same. 41 looks very much the same as late forties, if you were late 40. So tying happiness or tying a goal to a number is never, it’s never a really great thing. It’s more so because that’s when people chase money. When they get money, but there’s no happiness. Whereas if you chase something a little bit more, say ambiguous, where I want my house, I want the house for my family taken care of, paid for, right? Yeah. There’s a number to that, but it’s usually much more than that because okay, great mortgage is taken care of, but then what else? What about, you know, we’ve got the little changes we need to make in the house. Little fixes here and little repairs. What can we do to make, or we need to add more solar, you know, have a battery backup for the whole house. It’s little things like that, but at least the goal there is taking care of the family. It’s not reach X amount of numbers in the bank to fulfill and pay down all the debts, all that. Right? Same thing, that’s what I see with charity work as well that if you care more about the, we’re doing this, we’re doing this for a social good, a social, I would say social good outcome. If you will. Like charity work, that that keeps you going much more than trying to hit some sort of number threshold, right? So that’s one lesson there, right? The old African proverb, right? There’s the, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go further, go together. Right. And alongside another phrase, which is in order to go fast, you have to go slow. Right? And a lot of that is just looking after yourself, because you are human at the end of the day, you’re not a robot and you can’t treat yourself like a robot because you are still skin and bones and you still need to look after yourself. That was one of the biggest challenges I’ve always had, which was I remember telling myself, when I met my wife, I was like, my biggest challenge is learning how to chill at the end of the day, meaning, cause I just keep working, but I’m like, why can’t I just break away and do this? and at the time I was also piecing together a little home cinema. Right. And it was a room we had in the house that all we did was we watch films in it, but it was set up like a living room where nobody would visit and we’d use it as a living room, cause we already had downstairs living room. So this is an upstairs place. So instead, I’m like, well the only, since it’s the only thing we do here is watch movies, why don’t we just focus this this room on watching movies. That’s the point. Got rid of the coffee table, put in like two rows of seats, just really rejigged the couches, if you will. Just to mock it up to see like, does this work and set things like TV in the center of this room, so that’s the focal point, put speakers around so we can actually have surround sound because before the TV was in the corner and a TV in a corner is never really ideal for like, how many cinemas do you go to where the cinema screens in the corner of the room? It doesn’t work, right? It doesn’t work that way. The thing I learned is that because I made it an event. I made chilling out an event. That helped me so much more because that’s, I can stop. I can relax. I can let go. And by having recreation time, not that I just sit there all the time. Exercise is important too guys, come on. But it really does help unwind. And I always remember this phrase from [unintelligible], he says, In order to rock the internet, you got to get off the Internet. 

[00:15:40] Amardeep: Just unpacking some of the stuff you said there, where I thought for example, the goal setting is I’ve gone back and forth with this with myself about, is it good to set goals? Is it bad to set goals? Is it actually helping me? Is it not helping me? And I think what I’ve found is that reaching the goal isn’t really the point. So for example, when I was younger, I wanted to become a black belt. Becoming a black belt didn’t actually matter. What mattered is the journey I had to take to get there. And that’s what I think the different goals are set now. For example, I want make a million dollars in a year, not because I need that money, not because that money matters to me, but the different skills I have to learn and the different ways I have to adapt in order to make that money. That’s an interesting challenge for me. That’s something I want learn how to do. So for me, it’s driving that curiosity. If you set a target for yourself, this obviously comes at different points, right? If you’ve got the Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, where once you’ve got to a certain stage where you are relatively comfortable, then you can start looking at well, how do I make myself satisfied? What do I enjoy the most? And I enjoy the most of taking on different challenges, and for example, you mentioned there about like make the million dollars. It’s not that the money is what matters. It’s not that it’s going to make you happy, and that’s why you do need to set a different target afterwards. But you need to go into that, knowing that you’re not chasing that target because it’s going to make you happy. You’re chasing it because you love the chase. And then when you set yourself a new target, it’s less upsetting because it’s now you’ve got a new opportunity to do something else which you love, to have that challenge again. And that’s an exciting thing. So it’s all about the way you perceive that and whether or not you can take the positives in that or not. Whereas if you think, this is it, this is going to make me happy. You’re probably going to be disappointed. 

[00:17:33] Amardeep: Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:18:08] Amardeep: With where you are today, do you feel like you have the balance, right? Or are you putting too much pressure on yourself still? Or swinging the other way? 

[00:18:16] Karaminder: I would say now with the level of experience I’ve had of say ups and downs, I feel much, much better about my balance. Where, you know, riding that edge, that knife edge, if you will, of burnout where you just kind of keep going, you’re like, ah, so I’m closer. I’m closer. I just got to get it. Just go do this, go to do that, just go do this, and you keep doing that. You don’t look after yourself and then you crash. It also doesn’t feel great. And now it’s lovely I get to spend time with my dog. I get to spend time with my wife, my family. I get to go outside. I get to ride my bike. Right. These are little things, but enjoying, you know, we’re human beings and we haven’t found another planet with human beings so far that we are aware of, or we’re told. Okay. There’s another thing there, but yes. The miracle of life that we are on this planet, you know, enjoying nature, enjoying the sunshine, enjoying the sea, enjoying the sweet things, if you will, because that, that’s kind of what keeps me going, because what is a life full of work? Oh, great. I died while improving optimization 17.6, 6%. Right? Now I’ve died, a happy life. No, you haven’t. No, you don’t. No one, you can’t, you can’t take it with you when you die either. Right. So what do you leave behind? What is it? I think about these things and I find a good balance approach, I remember, I think this is a talk from Aaron Draplin for Adobe max, and he found a union pin in his, like dad’s toolbox. And this little pin said eight hours of work, eight hours of recreation, eight hours of rest. So recreation, I also see that as play and that is the balance, right? 8 8 8. It’s pretty, pretty simple, pretty straightforward, and you kind of, do I get eight outta sleep? No, get a little bit less. That’s all right. Do I work more than more than eight hours? Yeah. But do I also spend time away just to have fun? Just to kind of refocus to be outside? Yes, absolutely. And. I’m hoping it’s probably, it probably feels like six to eight hours, probably by the time I get to sleep, it probably eight hours. But it’s a great, it’s a lovely balance because I’m able to be much more present. I’m not worrying. Right. I’m also not feeling the effects of overwhelm and the fact of feeling like, oh, don’t you always feel like you’re always behind. Yeah. But you kind of like make friends with it, in a way. Like you’re like, ah, it’s okay. I’m behind. That’s alright. So someone else may get there first, but it’s not about being better. It’s about being different. It’s about being who you are. 

[00:20:40] Amardeep: Is there anything new that you’ve introduced to your life that you’ve found is helping you with this balance? Like any new systems or any new tricks that you could share with the audience? 

[00:20:50] Karaminder: I remember what I needed to talk about before, and I want answer this. So the new thing that introduced in my life was my puppy. He has just turned a little bit past two years. He just only knows the world of COVID. His name is Mogley, little Yorkshire terrier. I swear that that little guy has done more for my mental health than any medicine I’ve ever tried, any therapy, any, and I go to therapy twice a week, and I’ve seen so many different ones, but having a puppy, a little guy, it’s just the best. You see him, you cannot feel bad or sad. You cannot. You just, he’s just, he’ll scratch on my door and I’ll know like, okay, he wants me to take a break. I’ll take a break. I get down on all fours, I get down flat on the floor and we interact with play. And it’s so rejuvenating. It’s so lovely. And he’s this little creature of just love. He just loves, he wants everybody around all the time. He’s always checking everyone, doing a bit of an inventory. But I love that. That is, that’s one, I’ll say that one. And then I got back into biking, you know, during COVID, because the last time I biking was geez, I was I think 15 years old, I fell off my bike, the downhill, and I got gnarly scars to show for it. I never rode bike after that. So I don’t know why. I just didn’t. And then getting back into that lovely feeling of mobile freedom, if you will. It’s just wonderful. My wife and I had a new year’s holiday in the little island of Catalina, just off of Los Angeles, just off the coast. And we took our little folding bikes, little Bromptons, right? If you guys know what those are, love those things. And we just rode around the whole island and it was just the best. You know, you see other people renting their golf carts going here and there and I’m like, Hmm, we got to enjoy it much more slowly, and we really, almost also when we got to eat, we felt like we earned it as well. It was very nice, very kind of natural and you get to stop and talk to a lot of people. That’s great. I remember now the advice that we’ve been given that I disagree with and it has to do with goals. And I’ll be, I’ll be honest. I’m completely shit at goals, but I think I know why. And I also know what works. So instead of goals, I look at it of how can I set up a system that helps me get there. So oftentimes I’m working backwards, but I’m also kind to myself. It’s not say a deadline that I need to hit this, but it’s more so, like you said, what is that journey of the, what is the mindset one needs to evolve into in order to attain and play at that level. So goals are something that people are like, oh, set goals. And I still see it. And it works for some people, right? Works for a lot of people, perhaps. But for me it doesn’t. But I know that it’s much better for me building a system, so you know, let’s you go back to the example of writing every day. Once I had built a writing system, which I only just did recently, last few months, I have a place for my ideas. I have a place where I can quickly see what direction of what I want write about next and what is the fire and desire in my heart of different subjects and topics that I do want to write about, and where am I going to publish them? And then seeing how that aligns with my greater goal of where I want to be, where I want to kind of accomplish, and I can kind of see it all together, but once I built that system, it wasn’t about writing every day, it was actually a bit more about being strategic in using writing to get me to where I need to go. Instead of like, I need to write every day or I need to write a 5,000 word piece and publish it every week. So I believe in, I’m a huge believer in systems because if I haven’t done something, then I stop myself and think, okay, why haven’t I done it? And the answer is always the same, Amardeep. It’s because I haven’t built a system or I haven’t built it into my system. You know, it’s so easy to go to three day weekends because I kind of had systems set up where I can quickly allow for that. I’m already managing my time with, you know, with [unintelligible] with [unintelligible] scheduling for headshot clients that very easy to say, yeah. Yeah. I don’t have a working hours on Friday. I still list them as I work, so if you call me and you want me, I I’ll do it, but you cannot auto book me for a Friday. 

[00:24:43] Amardeep: I’m curious about the four day week you have in the moment. Do you think that’s your ideal working week or in the future, do you want reduce it even further? Do you think it’s the right balance? Like let’s say, you don’t need the money anymore, or you’ve got to a position where like, it’s not a financial decision at all, it’s just about what’s the balance between play and work?

[00:25:05] Karaminder: I think that will fluctuate and I think it will change, and I think there are a number of factors, number of variables that will contribute to the answer of that question. One is, you know, where am I at in my life? And, you know, cause ideally I think I actually would work to work three days a week, but then I’m thinking, when I’m away from my, when I’m away from work for at least maybe two or more days, I get a bit antsy. Like I get, like, I need to make, I need to create, I need to do something I need to, I need to push. I just want to be, you know, my hands in the stew, if you will, in the ingredients and making things happen. So I know that. So I’m going to look at that of like, where’s my personal, how do you say achievement balance? My personal, like ambitious balance of, I feel comfortable here, I like working. I like creating things. And then versus like, okay, I’m on holiday, so now I’m going to take a big break. And then I wonder, like, do I get to a point where, I hope to get to a point where I have great staff, a great team behind me. And that I only have to maybe speak to them, I mean, the luxurious once a week. What’s going on, what’s happening, what’s the overview, and anything I need to be made aware of, quickly do that and maybe see them, speak with them for, I would hope not just an hour, maybe a couple hours or maybe half a day, and not only that, but to inspire them. And what am I doing with my time away from that? Then that means just like that quote I said before which is, in order to rock the internet, you’ve got to off the internet. So whether I’m reading books, whether I’m enjoying new experiences, but I’m, I’m taking those, I’m collecting those, I’m bringing it back, and then expressing that in whatever way, shape or form. You do video, written piece, tweet thread even, if that is appropriate for that, and enable to kind of build upon those things. That’s an, I wouldn’t say an ideal, but it, it would be nice to see if I can get there so that way I can spend more time exploring, but I know it’s always going to be a healthy balance because I love teaching. I love being able to share my wisdom, my advice. And so I kind of see it in a bit more like seasons, Amardeep, right? Like, you know, like in the winter season, when things are cold, we often have actually events where we get together, right? We have Christmas. In America with Thanksgiving. And I love these as like little anchor, little anchor events of one’s year that we can kind of hang our hat on, and it, and these events often rejuvenate us. At least it does for me, love spending time with my family when it’s colder outside, right? And it’s Christmas, and we go to watch movies, play games, eat. Right. And then the end of year reflection, what did we get done this year? What did we like? What do we want to do next year? It’s all nice that happens around that time, you know, new years is again, it’s just another, it’s just a calendar going on another day, right? But why is it that we use that time and opportunity to reflect and then to plan forward? So I see things as seasonal and I don’t see why we shouldn’t be seasonal either in terms of our growth, in terms of how we choose to spend our time. So I’ve written it down somewhere, but something like where spring, spring is like a realignment, like, all right, let’s get back into the groove. Let’s get back into the game. All right. What is it that we, what is the direction we want to go in? and what is the realignment there? And I’m kind of very like diverging, very open to new ideas, new concepts, and then say in the summer, then it begins to like, all right, let’s execute, and it becomes more like let’s execute and build and then also lift off and take a break because it’s summertime. Let’s enjoy outside. Right. and fall is a bit more like, all right, let’s get back into the swing of things. Let’s keep building, have a nice, good push towards the end of the year, and then end of year is a bit like summertime where I’m going to leave off the throtle and enjoy time with family and kind of reflect as well. So you see what I mean by seasons? You can, I plan my community, my community course grader to this as well, so each dashboard I have is quarterly and with a different focus because as much as I’m trying to be aligned with this, as much of our human seasons now, I mean, northern hemisphere, I know southern hemisphere, sorry. But that’s kind of where I’m based and that’s where I kind of align things up that way.

[00:29:07] Amardeep: I assume like this in terms of the way you’ve mentioned how the seasons work for you and it’s something I’m coming to terms with myself at the moment is that we’ve had nice weather here recently, which I know is very surprising for London. But now that I work for myself, I find when it’s nice outside, I don’t really want work. I want go outside, sit in the sun. I want socialize, and something I think about in the future is how do I build my work and everything I do around that? How do I give myself the summer off essentially? And can I get that kind of position? And with other podcasts, I know that this is what they do. They take the summer months off and often it’s because they’ve got kids, for example. So they have the school vacation period. So they align it with that, but that’s what I’m doing for this podcast. So there’ll be a few more episodes until the end of July. And we have break for August and September, which I can refresh, and like you said, in order to create good content and to help people, you’ve also got to be living life because why would anyone want take advice from me or you, if all we did all the time was work? You’ve got to have a life. You’ve got to have things that have meaning to you outside of work, to then be able to help other people to live their lives that are meaningful to them. And if you could give like one message that you really want people listening right now to take hold of, and you think they’ll make a positive difference to their lives, what would that one message be? 

[00:30:31] Karaminder: There are so many racing through my head. I’m going to try and choose just one. First thing I think of is just kiss your loved ones. Like let them know how you feel about them. Cause we don’t often say that. I think that’s really important. Call your mom. Even better, hug your mom. And we don’t often express how we feel about each other, like you know, I can tell you how I feel. I feel this way, and I can see, I can talk to you about how you feel. But once we talk about how we feel about each other, about say our relationship, that is a level of depth that is not, it’s not an everyday thing, but it is a very sweet and it, and you know, what’s the phrase? Where people will never remember what you said, but they’ll remember how you made them feel. And this goes along with my values of treasuring relationships. It’s the level of depth of conversation and intimacy of words we use with each. It’s the one thing I want you to take away from is don’t be afraid to tell people how you feel about the relationship between you two. 

[00:31:34] Amardeep: It’s been great to talk to you today. Where can people listening, who want learn more about you and what you’re up, where should they go? 

[00:31:41] Karaminder: You know, my wife makes fun of me as well, she’s like, you can’t even keep up with yourself. I’m like, I know that is so true. Right. So first thing is my Twitter, right? So my first name is Karaminder. I do own the domain ifyoucanspellmyname.com which will take you to my webpage, where I have my writing and that’s kind of where I’m building my epicenter, my HQ. So my courses, community, all things related to me is there and enjoy my newsletter. So I’m really just kind of keeping this focused to Twitter for like the small talk and newsletters for the communication of like, what’s happening? What am I doing? How am I living life? But I always love hearing new voices, always love hearing like, if you enjoyed this, just you can just tweet me, just say what your takeaway was. What little piece of advice or piece of words I used that you enjoyed. I love hearing that, and I treasure that. That would literally make my day, no matter day, whatever day you do that, I would be beaming and I would be showing it to my wife and be like, look, see, someone else thinks I’m cool. 

[00:32:42] Amardeep: The final thing I ask all of my guests is what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently? 

[00:32:48] Karaminder: One thing, one small thing then, it is a bit small is, so I was talking about my bikes earlier, right? Folding bikes. Now I’m a huge fan of these Brompton folding bikes. Right. They came out with a titanium bike and not just any cause normally the folding bikes, they’re a bit heavy. It’s like 25 pounds, what 12, 14 kilos, something like that. And I know this is an object, right? This is something you pay money for. It’s stuff. I get that. But what it kind of represents to me, and what it’s really allowed me to feel is, this is the first Brompton by the way that I paid for brand new. Everything else, I always purchased second hand, and I always ride it with my dog. So my dog gets in a little basket I attach, and we go on a little adventure and it is the, that brings me so much joy and happiness. And I love that it’s stupid light. It’s almost unfathomably light. And there was only like 500 made this year, 200 in London, 200 to the east, like Singapore, Asia, and a hundred came to the US and I was lucky enough to get one of them, so I feel lucky in that regards and it’s not just some beauty piece. I use it. I ride it. I love it. And it’s funny, you know, Steve Jobs always said bicycle for the mind, right? The computer is a bicycle for the mind, but you know what? Bicycle is it’s also for the mind as well. And it helps. It helps me with just thinking clearly and just being outside. It’s just, it’s a wonderful little device that I hope more of us get to have an experience. Just any bike, doesn’t, not necessarily this one, but just, just go outside and be around the people you share this patch of earth with.

[00:34:27] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes. 

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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Welcome to episode 53 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 53’s guest is Natalie Costa. She’s the founder of Power Thoughts Incorporated. It’s a teaching, coaching, and mindfulness service aimed at teaching kids to deal with their emotions and the negative feelings that they have. It’s not about hiding those emotions away but dealing with them in a healthy way that promotes good habits which can take them further into adulthood. 

Natalie was a teacher for 15 years and loved the classroom but she just see all these problems of anxiety creeping amongst children more and more and wanted to do something about it. She’s now helped over 4,000 children through her methods. 

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels. 

• You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health:  https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Natalie’s Website: https://www.powerthoughts.co.uk/
• Follow her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliecostaconfidencecoach
• Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/powerthoughtsnc/

Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• Practice makes perfect (2:20)
• Talking about burnout (7:15)
• Working for yourself and doing something you love (9:25)
• What lights you up? (20:41)
• All about balance  (24:21)
• Space, play, and connection (27:47)
• Structure helps (31:34)
• The better version of yourself (32:13)

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Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

—————————————————-———————————————

Transcript

[00:00:00] Natalie: I don’t have the energy for things that I’d normally have the energy for and feeling completely a lack of purpose of what’s the point of all of this. I’d hit that point of, right, this has probably got all of those telltale signs of burnout is very, very close. That away from motivation is good, because it sometimes leads into action, but also thinking, okay, well, what is it that I’m running away from? And just making sure that I’m not going to keep running away from that thing. Like, well, now I know what I’m doing, but how do we step out of this?

[00:00:36] Amardeep: Welcome to the Mindful and Driven podcast, where we help you to not lose sight of what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Natalie Costa, she is the founder of Power Thoughts Incorporated. It’s the teaching, coaching, and mindfulness service aimed at helping kids to deal with their emotions and the negative feelings that they have. It’s not about hiding those emotions away, but dealing with them in a healthy way that promotes good habits, which will take them further into adulthood. Natalie was a teacher for 15 years and loved the classroom, but she just saw this problem of anxiety creeping in amongst children, more and more and wanted to do something about it, and she’s now hopefully over 4,000 children through her methods. Let’s go into the show.

[00:01:22] Welcome to Mindful and Driven podcast, Natalie. It’s a pleasure to have you. 

[00:01:25] Natalie: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and I’m, I was really looking forward to that. I was like, what have I got for my Monday morning? And so I was really excited for our chat. Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:33] Amardeep: Yeah. It’s, we went to the same book launch event for Simon Alexander Ong, and that was so great, and I remember you wore a very bright suit. What color was it? 

[00:01:42] Natalie: It was like a bright neon pink. Yeah. but I got a lot of compliments that night and you know what? That was probably the first time, that was the first time I actually wore that suit out. And I’m so glad I did. 

[00:01:54] Amardeep: Cause then I remembered you. We didn’t talk at the event, but then when we talked later. I was like, Oh, I remember you from the event. You were that person.

[00:02:00] Natalie: Pink suit though. Yeah. Oh no, no, thank you. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, we met that evening and I think we’ve also got Dr. Nilesh, which I just mentioned before. I think kind of, connected through him on Instagram. Yeah. So a few mutual connections that we have. 

[00:02:15] Amardeep: The first question, I always love to ask people because I think it sets it off where you can see how people really think is, what’s like, advice you hear a lot that you really disagree with? 

[00:02:25] Natalie: Practice makes perfect. I think the reason why, so whilst there is an element, okay, so I might be bit contradictory. While there’s an element of truth to that, of course, the more we practice and the better we can get at it. I always think, well, and the reason why is, cause my mom always used to say to me, I’m a want to be perfectionist. Now what she meant by that is, what is perfect? Because my level of perfection is different to your level of perfection. It’s different to the person down the road’s level of perfections. and I often see this with children as well, especially the children in the work that I do that get really anxious and overwhelmed. You know a lot of the time it is those, the brighter kids, the kids that just are able to access things and super smart, and so the minute they make that mistake, or it’s not perfect, it comes all crashing down and beginning to just help them see that actually yes, practice makes perfect to the extend in terms of we can improve, and of course, there’s all of that, and I mean, neuroscience proves that, neuroplasticity. But what is perfect? And I also think in terms of the other side of that as well is if I push, push, push towards that perfectionism, what’s the cost of that in terms of burnout, in terms of not, you know, not being able to, you know, be my fully function self, because I’m absolutely exhausted, or ridden with anxiety? Which are also things that I see. So that’s why I don’t really love that phrase. I don’t really like that as like, I more would prefer, you know, practice makes my brain grow, I’m training my brain, my brain’s working out, if I’m bringing it down into kids’ language. So yeah, not my favorite phrase.

[00:04:05] Amardeep: Yeah. I think it makes a lot of sense because I’ve had the same thing when I was growing up and when I was studying different like, both at school and both outside of school too. And it’s this whole idea of perfection, right? Because you shouldn’t be studying or doing something, so you can be perfect at it because pretty much everything you can’t actually have perfection. Right? Unless it’s like a maths test, you can get a hundred out of a hundred. Yeah. But even then are you going to do that for rest of your life? There’s always going to be a test, which you don’t get full marks on and that’s not cause you didn’t try hard enough, it’s just, that’s the nature of things. Right? You try hard, you try to learn, and that makes you better at things. But I think people like to have it wrapped up in something which is so, it’s got the alliteration. It’s like, oh yeah, if you do this, then this. When in reality, everything’s much more complicated than that. And we need that complexity. Right? Because imagine if everything we did, it’s like, okay, if you just keep working at this forever, one day, you’ll become perfect. And then what? It’s actually good not to become perfect. And I think we’ve heard of it with Infinite Game right? Is that I don’t like things where there’s actually an end to it. I like it where I can keep being better. So, 

[00:05:14] Natalie: Exactly. 

[00:05:15] Amardeep: My background, for example, is in karate. In karate, you can’t become perfect. It’s impossible. There is no definition of perfect. But the more you train, the more you learn, the more you realize you don’t know as well. So there’s always a new challenge. And to me, that’s the bit that makes it exciting rather than the end goal. 

[00:05:32] Natalie: Yeah. And something that you said that, that just made me think in terms of that whole practice makes perfect is, I think quite fixed mindset. We’re focusing on that end goal. And a lot of the work that I do, you know, with parents and educating parents and, you know, children is focusing on that process, the growth that you get versus that of course, the end goal that touch with you, that you’re going to get to that end goal. But then what? And you know, In the world that we’re in, how often have we heard, you know, people get to that pinnacle, that goal that they want, and then they’re depressed, or it doesn’t fulfill, you know, they don’t feel fulfilled. And so I think the focus should really be let’s focus on the growth that we are making. The, how we are learning, what we’re gaining from that, who we are becoming on that process versus that perfection. Yeah. So I love there what you shared there as well. You know, I think it’s just a shift of that, because if I think about it, it is very much of a fixed mindset sort of statement. And then maybe it’s something that generations ago, if we’re thinking back to like the schooling system that was very structured and rigid, I can see how where it’s come from, but I don’t think it’s really serving us now. And I don’t think we’re always aware of that because I think that sort of script is still underlining a lot of our behaviors and our actions. And you know, if we are thinking about burnout and there friends of mine conversations in this world, that, I mean, it’s all like that underlying, that perfection, that when’s it going to be good enough? Or what is good enough? 

[00:06:59] Amardeep: You think in the past you did try to for perfectionism and what stopped you from doing that? Did you keep trying to get to a certain level or have you always had a more healthy relationship with it? 

[00:07:10] Natalie: No, not healthy. I would love to say it was healthy. And I think that’s a thing because I really struggled and I’m 100% still on that journey and it’s something, you know, we spoke about being, self-aware like, it’s good to be like, we’re good at being self-aware, but how do you actually start to break, like, well, now I know what I’m doing, but how do we step out of this? And it’s something, I think burnout is something that I would always get myself to a point to, because I’d, and for me it’s work, like I’d overwork overwork put in more, what is this? Like, literally be that little hamster on a wheel. So for me, it’s more from that process of, through the pain and the facedown moments and when I’m absolutely exhausted and, I don’t have the energy for things that I’d normally have the energy for, and feeling completely a lack of purpose of what’s the point of all of this, and then recognizing, oh, okay, I can see how I got here again. How did I get here again? Oh, well here, this is kind of, you know, back step and so I’ve become, definitely become better at it. But it’s not something I’m fully, I think that’s part of my mission on this earth and they always like say you teach, but you need to know yourself or what you’re needing to learn as well. And I think, okay, that’s clearly why I’m on this earth is just to help, you know, children not get into, you know, beginning just to develop healthier habits when it comes to how they view their challenges and their setbacks and their mistakes. And what is that sense of perfection. Can we start to shift that narrative instead? And for me, there’s definitely, I think more of my working for self, so not so much at school, but definitely working for myself. There’s been many moments and situations, gradually building over time, but at least there’d be one episode a year where I’d hit that point of right, this is probably got all of those telltale signs of burnout is very, very close.

[00:09:07] Amardeep: When you made the change from school to working for yourself, what do you think drove that? Was it escaping burnout from the school world or was it excitement for what you’re doing today? Or what do you think that mix was? 

[00:09:18] Natalie: It’s weird. So I never wanted to be a teacher, but it was, I grew up in South Africa and my parents, you know, traditional. Go to university. After school. And so I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I, you know, I left with what, A levels like you know, good marks. And so my parents were like, okay, well, send me on this like, what’s it, this EQ IQ aptitude tests. And like, I got this list generated back and there was nursing. I don’t do blood so that wasn’t going to work. And there was a whole lot like list of other things. And I really enjoyed art, actually. I loved two subjects, and art, but it wasn’t considered a safe career. Like, you know, and then teaching was on there and , I thought, oh, okay. I kind of like kids. I could become a teacher. I can do my art. So that like, that literally was what I thought. Right. And then when I trained to be a teacher, I remember saying to my mom, this is not for me. Yes, but keep at it. because it’s a good job. It’s a safe job. You’re always going to have work. And so I was always fascinated with human behavior, so I did psychology degree as an evening subject, and I carried on with that, finished my teaching degree, carried on psychology, did my honors in psychology, and then I thought, well, I need to get a job. Let me go to the UK, cause my dad’s Portuguese. Let me come here and teach, then I’ll go back into my master’s in educational psychology. So I always had this thing of, and I always used to say to my mom, I do enjoy teaching, but I want to teach what I’m passionate about. And that’s why I felt like I could never get from the educational sector. But obviously it was safe to get a teaching job. So that’s what I did. And then I think just throughout my teaching career, I just got more and more frustrated and I felt, I just felt like there must [unintelligible] . I cannot describe it. [unintelligible] there must be something else. There must be. I’m not, there must be something else I’m meant to be doing. And I actually, I dabbled a bit in the fitness industry as well, cause I loved fitness. So I trained to be an exercise to music instructor and I taught spin and, you know, boxer size and fight club and all these cool things, and I got a little bit of that buzz. I was like, oh, this, this kind of feels like, we spoke about like those light bulb moments, like this kind of feels like a light bulb. Like this, this I that I want to pursue. But I think for me, the big change was, is this it? That was honestly like a question I used to think. Is this it? I would look ahead and think, I don’t want to be a head teacher. I don’t want to be a deputy head. I don’t want to do any of those things. I really want to work with kids and their emotions, but not to the extent of therapy, because what I had learned along the way is actually, and I got into coaching and I loved the whole model of coaching. And so, I think, you know, and there was a stage as well, where I was thinking, do I become a mindfulness trainer? because mindfulness was sort of on this scene. So that sort of felt like it ticked the box, but not quite. And it was then that it dawned on me. It was like, oh, could I do something by myself? Could I put coaching together for kids? But it’s not done. I’m like, nobody’s done this. But I could see from the work that I was doing with children and bringing my coaching elements and breaking it down into lessons, and teaching them about their brain and their thoughts and their, you know, their unwelcome visitor and the, you know, how to regulate their emotions. I was like, I could put this into a program. So I think, and that’s when I literally felt like this is it right now. And then it’s so weird because years ago I tell my mom, I want to teach what I’m passionate about and fast forward that’s now what I’m doing. Not ever thinking I’d be doing it in this way. So for me, I think it was just that deep knowing that there was something else. And that voice just would not go away. It just would not leave me. And I mean, we’re talking about years, you know, where I first dabbled in the fitness industry for a few years and it still wasn’t quite that voice because I was like, yes, it’s this, but it’s not quite this. There’s something else. And I think also seeing where, you know, with my own struggles with anxiety and depression as well, and when I actually like learned, I don’t have to believe every dumb, stupid thought I think. I can actually get some distance from that. And seeing kids really struggle with that and then thinking, well, actually, why can’t I put this together and help them now so that they don’t have to get to that point in their twenties when they, I’m not saying all the time, but there’s more preventative strategies in place versus you hit that point, and you’re like, oh my god. Like, where am I? What am I doing? And you’re, you just, I mean, cause we know how powerful our thoughts and our mindset can be. Right? And so I think, yeah, there’s a whole mixture, I think of little dots. I don’t know if, I’m sorry. I feel like I’ve gone on a tangent there. Have I answered your question? I think I’ve answered your question. 

[00:14:02] Amardeep: I think the answer to the question there was, it was, partly it was escaping something which you thought wasn’t making you happy, but it was also running towards something which was making you happy. Cause I think there’s always this danger, which I’ve seen with different people where sometimes, the focus of their life is running away from something they don’t enjoy rather than running towards something they do enjoy. And if you just run away from something, you might be just running in a completely wrong direction. And I liked what you did there because you dabbled in a few different things. You tried out the fitness industry and like people listening right now, it’s like, if you feel like how you did, then that’s why I’d really advise people to do is don’t think like this has got to be it for like, oh, I can try this. Maybe I’ll enjoy this. We try that. Maybe I’ll enjoy that. And the experimentation, that’s how you start to learn things. Whereas if everything you try, like this has to be it. You’re never going to be happy. It’s the same thing with relationships. That as soon as you start putting that much pressure on something, it’s very hard to ever meet your expectations. But what I think is really interesting now as well, is that when you left your job, you’re focusing mainly on working with kids at schools and as a coach, but now you’re adapting a bit as well, right? And I feel what all that shows is this whole idea, I think, of the lifelong purpose, I disagree with in many ways, cause I think it adapts over time. Like you change. You do more and you find out that actually I like this area, but if I do it in this way, that’s more interesting to me. 

[00:15:27] Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:16:02] So can you talk about that transition you’re making now as well to work with parents as well? 

[00:16:06] Natalie: Yeah, totally. And I think it’s one of the things, you know, you’re not the same person that you were a year ago with your knowledge and your mindset and your awareness. And I mean, cause we only know what we know until we realize what we don’t know. You know, it’s, you know, a lot of knows in that phrase, but it’s, you’re a different person as well. And I think, going back to five years ago, so Power Thoughts have been in business now September full time, five years. Like this coming September and never would I have thought in a million years that I would be wanting to work more, you know, work with parents, cause my, initially my plan was always like school workshops and I just want to be in school, in curriculum in schools, to now, actually, that’s not really what I want anymore. I want to be working with parents and doing corporate workshops for parents in the corporate sector. And so I think, that in itself, that really lights me up now. And even a year ago, I was just, no, I can’t work with parents. Like that’s not, that’s not my business model. My business model is here working with children. So even all that growth, that’s just taken place over a year, and actually when somebody mentioned to me, oh, can you work with me? And it was a parent that it reached out. And initially I was like, no, no, no, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t do this. Like I work with children, like, I’m good at working with kids, but then I thought, hold on, I’m working with parents all the time cause I’m always doing a debrief with parents. I’m always telling them. What we’ve done. And actually how many times do those calls overrun? Because I’m giving them more because there’s not enough time in that 10 minute window frame. So it was actually that. It was like, oh, how can I shift perspective? And how can I start to look at this? And then now that lights me up, you know? And I always think of my friend, Lucy Sheridan always used to say to me, she’s like follow the breadcrumbs. And like, it’s just that next little thing. And just that next little thing. And you don’t know what the breadcrumbs are going to be in five years down the line, cause it might, it’s things that you’re just not even on your radar right now, but following this little thing is going to lead to that little thing is going to lead to that little thing. I love that, you know. It’s not, instead of making this, okay, this is THE thing. And I definitely did that. because if, I mean, and I didn’t touch on this but just before I set up Power Thoughts and I was still dabbling, I mean, I was still teaching full time. I don’t know how I did this. This clearly should’ve led as well to a bit of a burnout moment, cause I literally would teach my year one classroom, go teach a spinning class in the morning, and then come back and work with my coaching clients in the evening. Like who does that? I’m like, who does it right now? You know? But prior to setting up Power Thoughts, I wanted to work with women making career changes and like in the corporate sector. And I held onto that idea so much, cause I’m like, this is what’s going to make me leave teaching. This is what’s going to make me leave teaching. And there was that little voice saying, no, no, no, this is not it, and I did not want to listen to that. I was like, no, no, no, but this is my way out. I have to get out. And there was so much pressure on like, this has to be THE thing, and it’s so funny because when I actually let go of that, I was like, this is not THE thing. And I was in limbo for what is my thing. And that’s when I was like, okay, mindfulness, do I do that? Do I do this? That’s when these seeds started to be planted of like, oh, but we could actually put this together for children. So I think also allowing yourself some of that just, and it feels really scary, I suppose, that open space where you just, or like, on your little rafting votes and you don’t actually know where you’re going and, but just trusting that process a bit for things to integrate. 

[00:19:34] Amardeep: Yeah. I get some people come to me and say, oh, I want to write a book, but then they don’t know what they want to write it about. They don’t know anything about what it’s about. They just have this idea that I want to do this. And it’s like, I think with your working with women, transitioning their careers, is this idea that like, oh, that would be something good for me to do rather than actually having a desire to do it, of like, I really enjoy that. It’s not led by enjoyment. It’s led by their end goal of like, that’s a cool thing to do. And it’s interesting because I’m probably going to write a book by the end of this year or next year, but it was never my goal in life to do that. It’s because now I’m really enjoying that side of things, so I’ve written like hundreds of articles now, but what I want to do is can I really dive deep into that? And I’m enjoying that process. That’s why I want to write a book. It’s not because it’ll be a cool thing to do. And that’s one of the things I think people often need to think about of when they’re changing their jobs, it’s like being led by, like you said, the enjoyment. What do you actually like doing not what you think is something which will be, okay if I move into this, then I’ll become successful. Or then I’ll be a person that people talk about. Like, that’s a secondary thing, always. It should be about, I’m doing this because I really love doing this. 

[00:20:51] Natalie: Yeah. And I would say definitely because I think sometimes we can, we know, you know, social media, your feed is just one little glossy version of what’s, you don’t see the blood, sweat, and tears all the time behind that, you know? And I think it’s, it can be really glamorized as well. And I think for me, I always just think, and it sounds, maybe it sounds silly, but the language works for me is like, okay, well what lights me up? And it doesn’t mean it’s always going to be fun and pleasant and enjoyable, but what really lights me up and okay, how can I make this then into an opportunity? Or how can I monetize this? Or how can I do this so that I’m supporting myself? And it takes time, I think, to find that. I think that’s the other thing. It takes time and, what I’ve also realized is the things that light me up kind of come to me out of like the left wing when I’m not expecting it at all, because I might be so focused on this. And then you sort of like, just get that little ping of, oh, okay. It’s maybe this. But that takes a bit of practice to maybe tap into that like, you know, your intuition, that like intuitive hit. It’s not, if you’re not used to that, it does take a bit of practice and patience and time. But I would also say it’s, you know, you’re definitely right there. Okay, well, why, and I mean, I’ve had that. Like, I’d love to write a book. In actual fact. True story. I spend a good six months writing a book proposal and you know what? I did not enjoy the process because I was more fixated on, I have to write a book because that’s just, I got myself into this, but I’ve got things to say, and I know there’s a book in me, but this book is just not, and it’s not, it’s just, doesn’t, it feels hard. And if it’s so hard, then it’s probably not the right book for me. And I mean, I’m still waiting on a book idea. Do you know what I mean? It’s and I think I said to you, I’m much more comfortable in front of the camera versus writing. I prefer, you know, talking versus writing. But I’ve almost just let myself go a little bit with that, cause I’m like, the right idea will come when I need that idea. You know, like when I’m ready for that idea and like I’ve jotted some stuff down and I’m, but my approach is a lot different because now I’m not forcing it. And I suppose I’m in that kind of like, well, I don’t know where it’s going to take me, but I think it’s becoming really self aware and thinking, what is that thing that you want? And it’s, you know, questioning that. Is this really like, what is that, the driving factor then? Like you said, you know, sometimes it’s that away from motivation is good, cause it sometimes leaps us into action, but also thinking, okay, well, what is it that I’m running away from? And just making sure that I’m not going to keep running away from that thing, cause that’s only going to, fuel, sustain us for so long before, where is it that I’m going? 

[00:23:41] Amardeep: I think there’s a huge problem as well of people being driven by insecurity, of needing to prove themselves. They might want to have a book because then they can, I’m successful, then I’ve written a book, or they might want some other achievement and they might want a promotion. It’s like, they don’t necessarily want to do that job, but they need that promotion because it validates themselves. And it’s really hard to break that mentality and I know about it myself. I know that I can do it at times, but it’s just kind of giving myself that rain check of, again and being like, I don’t actually want to do that. I’m just doing it because I think it sounds cool. Or because maybe I can put it on my Instagram or maybe because I can tell other people, so that shouldn’t be the reason why I’m doing this is to impress other people. And it’s very hard to break out of that. And like, with your life at the moment, and you’re making a few transitions and I know you do only certain days when you do your coaching, do you feel like you’ve got the balance right? Where you are doing everything at the right levels at the right times? The laughing tells me not . 

[00:24:39] Natalie: Hell no. No. That’s where we’re aiming to. An actual fact, I’ve got it written right there, right. And actually this is saying to Dr. [unintelligible], cause I did some work with him, but draw your ideal week and it literally is there. That’s what we’re aiming to. And I think, it’s, you know, the two days yes. I’d love to work with clients two days a week. At the minute, it’s probably three to four days a week. So I’ve become really good at saying no on Fridays, cause I get a lot of requests for Fridays. And like Friday is my admin day, down day, just five o’clock on a Friday night is not, you’re not going to get the best with me trying to support your child. You know what I mean? , This is not going to happen. And also be honest, I’ve become good at saying no to evening work as well, because I think I am based on, you know, a lot of like what Simon says and his work, about when does your, and when are you, you know, working with your energy ?And energetically, I’m much more of a morning person than, I’m not saying I won’t say no to work all the time in the evenings, but I’m a lot more conscientious about what I say yes to in the evenings, cause that’s like my sacred time with my family. But have I got the balance right? I think it’s no. I’ve definitely become better at it and saying no to things on, even seeing like boundaries in terms of weekends. Whereas before, and I think there’s an element of doing this. If you’re starting out, like yes, there are going to be days and times and you’ve got to work inconvenient, and it’s not always going to tick the boxes. I’m not saying like, I do feel like, it is a bit of a fine line. What I’m struggling with at the minute is knowing when it’s still me switching off at the end of the day. So whilst I build a bit more boundary with client work, we know there’s always more stuff that you can, you know, as a business owner, I’ve got to send this email, I’ve got to do that, I’ve got to do that, I’ve got to do that. And so me switching off me, so I’m probably the worst one, cause then I’ll stay on that extra hour and do these extra things. And then it becomes an hour-and-a-half, so that’s probably where I’m, struggling with still. 

[00:26:39] Amardeep: What I’ve done this week, so this is, the week we’re recording this is The Platinum Jubilee Week in the UK. So we’ve got Thursday and Friday off for bank holidays, and what I did this week is that I actually canceled all of my, like, I couldn’t let people book me in from Monday to Wednesday. From last week I changed it. So I’ve got this recording today. I’ve got another meeting later on. A couple things on Tuesday and Wednesday, but I’ve actually got a very free week. I really needed that. I needed to do that reset because in recent weeks, I’ve had maybe 20, 30 calls each week and at some point in between that I need to actually get things done.

[00:27:17] Natalie: Yeah. 

[00:27:17] Amardeep: So this is the problem that’s been happening with me is that I enjoy talking to people, but talking to people, that many people in a short amount of time means I’m not actually giving them my full attention. I’m not fully present. So I might be having more calls and connecting with more people but it’s at a lower quality because it ain’t my full attention. I’m thinking, oh god, I’ve got to do that later on like, oh, I haven’t got enough time between these meetings, which then reduces the whole purpose of the point of talking to him in the first place. And another thing I really love to know about is on your wall there with the ideal week, what is your ideal week? 

[00:27:52] Natalie: Yeah. And just, I’ll answer that, and then I was saying, you said I’m going to come back to you and that, if that’s okay. Cause, if I remember that, yeah. So the ideal week is, so client days are Tuesdays and Wednesdays. And working with some clients or parents in the morning, well, parents doing the day, cause I work with the kids and parents. The parents in the day and two children in the evening. Cause I still enjoy working, I mean I love working with kids. I want to stay in their world, but I don’t want to have them every, work with them every single evening, which is obviously, I’m freeing that up. Mondays I’ve put down as more of a task, admin day, connection day. I love, and one of the things that I really only discovered, I mean, I love interacting with people, meeting people, but I think consciously making an effort of it over the last couple of months is how important connections are because it lights me up. It’s one of the things that I thrive off as well. And, you know, even like, put down like, go to an art event or, you know, go to a talk, or some sort of thing in the evenings, because at the minute, like I said, with my clients, I have every evening is taken up. So it kind of limits me from doing that. And Thursday is, I mean, I work out, I enjoy working out. So there’s workouts on all mornings. Thursday’s another connection day or perhaps a panel talk or collaboration, and I’ve even put in their podcast because I’d love to do my own podcast, but I’ve just not had the space for that. And yeah, Fridays are my day. Fridays are my day where I get to, the weather doesn’t really allow it, but paddle boarding is something that I loved, because I’m, I often go to Portugal in the summer or whether it is actually learning Portuguese, I’ve been promising this, I would learned Portuguese for the last four years. We haven’t done that. I’m also really, I did, you know, two art courses up to my A levels. I’d love to pick up some drawing or painting. Travel, you know, long weekends away with my husband. So that’s sort of where I feel like the ideal week is now. Because I think I said to you in one of the questions, I’m not very good at the big like five years from now. Of course I’ve got ideas of what I want, but it’s just like, how do I get there? I need to do baby steps that feels more tangible. And yeah, what I can see on my week is there’s a lot of space. There’s a lot of space. There’s play. There’s connection. I’m not in my office all day. You know, it’s great that I’ve got my office space. I’m really grateful for it, but I’m somebody that definitely thrives of being around other people as well. I think Vanessa van Edward talks about like being an omnivert. So you, you know, you’re around, you enjoy the energy of people, but you also like your own company and I’m definitely both, and that, oh, that would just feel so good.

[00:30:26] Amardeep: I think a lot of people think about is when you start working yourself, they, it’s all about the freedom of how you can do everything you want and you don’t have to have any structure. But what I found is that over time, like at the beginning I did that, right. I was like working all over the place, but now I actually want the structure back again, because structure allows you to do better planning. Right? So if I work during the daytime, normal hours, say nine to five, that’s when all my friends are working. So that means in the evening, it can meet up with my friends. If I’m chilling out during the day and then doing work late at night or doing work odd hours, then my schedule, doesn’t align with other people as well. And also I don’t get that switch off moment because that total freedom, that means you’re never, truly not working either. Whereas if it, like most days now I go to a social, like a co-working space, so when I leave that co-working space, then I’m done for the day. When I’m working at home, I’m never really done because there’s always like, oh, I can go and do that. My laptop is just here. So I guess you’ve found that as well, about the structure actually does help, that total freedom is overrated in some ways. 

[00:31:36] Natalie: Yeah. Oh totally, totally, totally. And I think, you know, in terms of structure for me has been, so I needed the structure because just in terms of simple things, like getting dressed properly, you know, looking, not in your pajamas all day, because the energy that I feel, energetically I feel like I show up differently. I’m answering emails differently. I’m having different conversations versus if I’m not dressed, you know, in like day clothes. Exercise for me is a, like I need to move my body and not so much, yes of course, like physical aspects, but it’s more around mental aspects. And the difference that I notice in terms of my anxiety, my mindset, when I don’t exercise in the morning, even if it is just going, getting out of the house and going for a walk because, it just, I’m like, I have to do that. If I don’t do that, and maybe I’ve kind of spoken myself into a bit of like a loop. If I don’t do that, I’m going to have a bad day. It’s like, I have to get out, I have to move my body, whatever that is, because just that kind of like, okay, it signals the start of the working day. Yeah, you know, the structure of a, okay, well, and that’s what I found quite hard because I’d have a client here, a client here, a client here, calls here, calls, and it’s like, well, where’s the space for the admin work? Where’s a space for the creative bits to come out? You know, the, the bits I want to write for my newsletter that is actually something really engaging and that’s meaningful for my community? Where is the creative bits for, you know, my social media, online presence? Because that in itself takes time and effort. Because you know, I’m my own brand and you know, supporting clients, and I find that I’m definitely better, I mean, in terms of productivity, as well as actually having those chunks of time or like this day, I can dedicate to this, but these days I know are a little bit more free with clients and that admin stuff doesn’t need to take that much of a priority. And I guess that’s still where I’m at because whilst, thare are maybe, oh, you could, can we have a quick call here, but it’s not actually on the day that I would have my calls, but then we’ll, you know, it might be like an important company and I’m like, yeah, actually I do want to get in touch with them, so, okay, we’ll do that. But, and that’s fine now and then. So yeah, I mean, structure is really, I definitely thrive when there is a element of structure. Like you said, you know, the co-working spaces. When you kind of get home, that’s it. You know, and it’s like, I’m not, I mean, yes, the laptop’s there, but it’s almost like that signals to your right now, I can kind of, that was my day, now I’m home, there’s this other part of you. 

[00:34:05] Amardeep: And I think it’s really interesting what you said as well about how, if somebody you admire, how they would deal with it. Because sometimes you can put these people on a pedestal where they might react exactly the same way we do, but it’s almost the idolized version of yourself. Like how would you want to deal with this? But it’s sometimes hard to imagine it in that way, so you can use another person to be like, that’s the better version of me. Whereas like, I’ve thought about this in the past about using this model of how would like the not perfect me, but the person I want to be, how would they deal with this? How would I want to deal with this? How would I want to be able to even regulate my emotions or deal with stress? Or if I was looking back or if like the person I want to be in five years time or few years time, not based on achievements, not based on awards, but how I’m able to conduct myself, how would they deal with it? And am I living up to that? The only way to get to that person is to start making the changes and start doing it. 

[00:35:01] Natalie: It is. And so true, cause I mean, yeah, I mean, and sometimes I do think of the future Natalie. Okay, what would Natalie do? What would she say? How would she respond? And what beliefs does she have? Because that’s the other thing as well. What thoughts are she choosing to pay attention to? So yeah, the same insecurity still come up. Is she giving them as much attract, you know, like head space is what they need to be there. Because the thing is, you know, we’ll, we’ll, we’re are going to show up differently, but then it’s also, we also then start to have different thoughts about the, you know, different beliefs. So, I mean, that’s a whole different conversation, but it is stepping into, and I, and I would do that. I do do that a lot as well, like okay, how, even answering an email. Okay, you know, how would future Nat answer this email? Boom. There we go. I mean, I did this last week when I had to have a difficult conversation. I was like, okay, let’s just step into our shoes. Let’s write this. Let’s go. And I must be, I felt so good. It felt like, oh, okay. We’re evolving. We’re getting to that point. 

[00:35:55] Amardeep: It’s been a pleasure to talk to you today. Where can people listening hear more about you, what you’re up to, what you’re building in the future? 

[00:36:01] Natalie: My website powerthoughts.co.uk. I’m also on Instagram, so power thoughts NC and LinkedIn, I’m tapping into LinkedIn a lot more. I’m enjoying the space there. So that’s just Natalie Costa Power thoughts by Natalie Costa. So you can find me that side. And thank you. It’s been an absolute, absolute pleasure to chat to you. I’ve loved it. So thank you. 

[00:36:20] Amardeep: You too. And the final question I ask everybody is what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently?

[00:36:27] Natalie: Ooh, good question. One small thing that’s brought me joy recently? Okay. It’s going to sound really silly, but it’s not. And one thing, we were in London last week and it was a really sunny day and we were actually, my husband and I were busy walking to the gym, and we walked through a park. I just remember holding his hand and it sounds so bizarre, but like, so, so minor. And I just remember looking up and just looking at the trees, cause I miss London incredibly and we’ve moved from London and I’m desperate to go move back. And I just had like, I’m happy right now. I’m just really happy. Like we just had a nice day, we had, I don’t know, on our way to gym, we were going to play ping pong. It was just, and I still say to him, like, you know what, that moment I just felt like, this is it. I’m really happy. So there was nothing big. There was nothing monumentous. There was nothing huge. It was just, it was a really, just, just a good moment.

[00:37:28] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review. it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes. 

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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Welcome to episode 52 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 52’s guest is Rohit Jethu. He’s an actor, choreographer, and dancer. He’s currently in Mumbai working on a Bollywood film as an assistant director for Karin Johar. For the non-Indian people out there, that’s a really big deal.

Rohit’s gone viral many times on Instagram for his dancing. If you watch it yourself, I’m sure you’ll fall in love with his infectious and joyful style.

After studying in the United States, he moved back to Mumbai, India to chase his dreams of becoming a Bollywood superstar and I’m not going to bet against him.

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels.

• You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health:  https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Follow him on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/juniorjethu/?hl=en

Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• Share your ideas and inspire others (1:31)
• The decision to take the leap (8:35)
• The massive shift and taking risks (12:54)
• Talking about validation and confidence (16:57)
• The next steps  (20:17)
• Taking it step by step (22:57)
• Leveling up and connecting to people (26:19)
• The bigger picture and the human potential (29:25)

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Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

—————————————————-———————————————

Transcript

[00:00:00] Rohit: When you share your idea with people, you actually attract the right people towards you, telling the same story or readapting this concept in their own way. I think that to me is like success. If there’s no competition, people get lazy. People get complacent. You know, there’s a huge gap between what you learn in school versus what you learn in the real world. Once the second video went viral, that’s when I kind of built that confidence that you, you know, that this can be a full time career, and this is something that I could make money from. I believe that human potential is enormous. And sometimes we are limited to what we do by the profession that we choose.

[00:00:34] Amardeep: Welcome to the Mindful and Driven podcast, where we help you to not lose sight of what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Rohit Jethwani, who’s an actor, choreographer, and dancer. He’s currently in Mumbai, working on a Bollywood film as an assistant director for Karan Johar. For the non-Indian people out there, that’s a really big deal. Rohit’s gone viral many times on Instagram for his dancing, and if you watch it yourself, I’m sure you’ll fall in love with his infectious joyful style. After studying in the United States, he moved back to India and moved to Mumbai, so he could chase this dream of becoming a Bollywood superstar. And I’m not going to bet again him. I hope you enjoy listening today.

[00:01:19] Welcome to Mindful and Driven, Rohit. It’s a pleasure to have you here.

[00:01:21] Rohit: Thank you so much, man. I’m super excited for this podcast. I’m super excited why you started this podcast and I think why you started the podcast really drives me here, so I’m excited to take this forward.

[00:01:31] Amardeep: Yeah, and you’ve got such an amazing story. I can’t wait to get into the details of it, but let’s start off with what’s some common advice you’ve got along the way to your success, that you really disagree with?

[00:01:41] Rohit: Well, I think a lot of people have told me in the past that, oh, don’t share your idea, you know, it’s a secret and, you know, sure, you know, I do believe in intellectual property and I do believe in like patents, but what I’ve also noticed in the past is, when you share your idea with people, you actually attract the right people towards you. I remember this one incident when I just came back to India, it was during COVID. It was like one month before, like mass 2021 COVID just blew out of proportion, and that’s when the first lockdown happened in India. I was looking to build a studio, like a proper dance studio where we an create unreal content. And you can also have the best teachers from the community coming in and teaching you one. In one part, my head was, well, I don’t want to share this with anybody because if you, oh, you know, what we were trying to do was different [unintelligible] and no one had done it before. So I believe that it would do very well, but then I also, at the same time, I also struggled with the team, but I’m just like, okay, let me just take a step back. I’m just going to go bazooka and just share my idea with like tens of thousands of people from the community. I don’t care if people copy it. I don’t care if you know, people execute the same thing. For what it’s actually going to do for me is actually attract the right people to me. And in fact, I found like a co-founder I found the right teachers. I found like a studio manager, like within the first week and it wouldn’t have happened otherwise. You know, if I just kept this to myself, because these people are like, oh, you know, I dig the vision. I love what you want to do. Or, you know, I love the, you know, passion towards creating a studio in the city because nothing like what you’re doing exists over here. I’m on board. I want to be part of this vision and create it with you. And I’m like, you know, there you go. That’s my answer. So I do believe that everyone should, I feel like, you know, maybe half the world would be, would be saying, do not share your idea, but I guess I rely on the other half the world where I’m just like, you know, I took this idea idea, because the other people may not execute the way you execute it. Even if they kind of, you know, understand your vision behind it. So go ahead, go share the idea. And I think it will always attract the right people towards you to build your dream forward.

[00:03:26] Amardeep: I remember I know somebody who’s like in the dance world as well, and they started an online class at the beginning of the pandemic. They thought they were the first person to do it. They got annoyed that other people are copying their idea. It’s like, it’s not your idea to have online classes, but people can get very protective and they think of something and it’s like, well, it’s the entire world, it’s like, if there’s an idea that’s helping people, then isn’t it a good thing if other people do it too? So yeah, let’s say we, with your dance studio, let’s say somebody else in another part of the country or another part of the world decided, let’s do the same thing. That’s good, right? Because then there’s more people who are getting involved in the community and sharing what they love.

[00:04:07] Rohit: No, a hundred percent, I guess like there was this one more video that we had done and it was through the song, Tera Rang Balle Balle. And it was this bookshop video where it was boys versus girls. You know, typical Sangeet battles where you see like the groom family and the bride family kind of battling at Sangeet performance night. And we took that concept and we brought it to workshop dance, and we saw a lot of other people doing it. So initially a lot of my team members were like, well, they’re copying us, but I guess like that also rubbed off on me a little bit. Well, you know, someone’s copying the idea, but then later I was just like, well, I should be a lot more happy because someone a lot more established than us is actually inspired by our work and actually recreating in their own way, or like telling the same story or readapting this concept in their own way. I think that to me is like success. Or that to me, the sense of achievement and happiness as a, as someone who is just starting out in the dance world. So, no, I agree with you. I think more people do it, you’re just spreading the same love for everybody else, but at the end of the day, it’s a business, so you always want to get like a little higher than the other person, so.

[00:05:02] Amardeep: I think it’s also about the competition side as well. So one part of my background is I used to do karate, so I used to be national squad for karate, and I’d be training with the same people who’d also be gunning for the same gold medals I was going for. Now, what we did is we made each other better in training. We purposely told each other what their weaknesses were, because then when, if eventually we won, it meant that we’re beating people at their very best. And I think it’s the same in any creative industry. It’s like, you don’t want to hold back your secrets because then you can be the best because if you make other people better too, then they make you better and everybody gets better. Especially in the creative industry, so if somebody else does a dance to the same song that you’ve done, and they do it better than you, that’s inspiration for you, it’s become even better.

[00:05:47] Rohit: Yeah, a hundred percent agree.

[00:05:49] Amardeep: And before we started talking on this podcast as well, you mentioned how you’ve moved to Bombay now, and part of that reason is because you’re surrounded by people who you think are better than you, more intelligent than you, and smarter in different ways. And that means that you can learn. And it’s exactly the same thing from what you’re sharing in terms of the secrets there. You’re getting better because there’s other people ahead of you, so when you’re ahead of other people, you can help raise them up to.

[00:06:14] Rohit: No, I suppose, I think, I think there’s this one saying that the government always has, that is the government loves competition in any industry, because if there’s no competition, people get lazy, it’s, people get complacent, you know? And I think like they might, they may just be okay with producing average quality work while still enjoying like, you know, benefits of being a top player in the industry. So the government loves competition on any space because there’s just making, you know, people become much better what they do, I guess, like in some spaces, even in the art industry, while I believe that every, you know, like every individual is different because every artist is different. And I feel like there’s no comparison really between two people, because no one’s known for someone the other’s not for someone, but at the end of the day, you may just be fighting for a similar role or a similar opportunity. I think that’s where the competition really comes in and you know, it’s okay, man, you can either see competition as you know, like, I think jealousy may be a very common factor that you see through like, you know through, through your contemporaries in the same business, but I feel like, you know, you could either use that jealousy to convert that into inspiration, or you could just, you know, use that jealousy to convert that into insecurity. So I think it just like a, it’s just like a battle that you have to make a conscious decision to do it, because jealousy is a natural human phenomenon, but can you convert that to inspiration or do you want to still like, you know, let that make you feel insecure? I try to, you know, move towards like, okay, you know, I’ll be inspired by this person because what they’ve done is something phenomenal, and I think they will drive me forward to take the next step and become better.

[00:07:36] Amardeep: I think one of the worst things is when people get annoyed at other people, and let’s say they get annoyed that somebody copied their idea, but the only person that affects negatively is themselves, because they’re the ones stressed out about it. They’re the ones who feel bad about it. The person who’s been inspired by them, they’re happy, they’re doing something that they love, so it only hurts you if you have with this angry with you, right?

[00:07:58] Rohit: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think you just become your own victim and then you’ll just kill yourself. You know, I feel like there’s this popular saying either kill your victim or kill your growth, and I think, I just stick by that so much that you just have to use it as an inspiration and not as an insecurity.

[00:08:12] Amardeep: You didn’t start off, like full-time creative, right? Like you started off with, so you went to university and you studied business, I believe. And then you went into like a corporate job in some way, and then you quit. So how has that decision to make the leap into, because now, it seems like incredible to me that you were doing anything that wasn’t creative, because you seem like such a natural in what you’re doing, and like you’ve gained so many fans and followers. But that wasn’t always the case. Right? You didn’t want to initially do that. You didn’t think you could make it as a full-time creator.

[00:08:43] Rohit: Yes, a hundred percent, because I think, I come from a Sindhi family period. Sindhi means done that in other words means business, so, and I guess like if anyone’s from a Sindhi family, you need to know how to manage money well, or you need to know how to use your money well. So I guess like a huge part about me also was that, I love dancing. It’s been a passion for many years. I love acting. It’s been a passion for many years. I just love the state of performance. You know, and they love the, you know the process of actually getting there. We can actually put up a performance for an audience where they can get inspired from. And that sense of joy is beyond any monetary gain that I have had my life in the past. But when I was graduating from college, one thing always stuck to me was that can actually make money from my passion. I always thought my passion was just a hobby. I could like, you know, enjoy, experience you know, on good college, [unintelligible] and beyond that, I just had to get back to something that would actually be a financially stable career for me. So my first job was in education. I was still excited about the education industry because I believe that what you, you know, in fact learn in school, you know, there’s a huge gap between what you learned in school versus what you learn in the real world, and so I was passionate about bridging that gap and building a university in India that doesn’t have grades that doesn’t have, you know, assignments that’s like, real world projects with actual feedback that you’ll be given by people, et cetera. For example, if you’re doing like a course in web design, someone who’s an actual web designer will come and teach you web design, and you’re allowed to make projects like, and you’re supposed to make, you know, different, different webpages per week. I feel like I got super passionate in the education space and that was my first job. But while being on my first job, I didn’t want to stay disconnected to that because I think that also gave me a sense of joy and passion, and I didn’t want to stay disconnected. I wanted to keep on dancing. So once college got over, there was no platform really to dance, because in college your platform is like college competitions and stage and stuff. And around me, I saw a lot of people uploading dances on Instagram. This was around 2017, 2018, 2019 era where like content creators blew up. And when I saw people like uploading a lot of stuff on Instagram, I’m like, oh, wow, this is a platform. You know, Instagram has now become the platform, which is not just local, but it has become a global stage for you to perform. So I ended up uploading a couple of videos too, because I’m super inspired by the people around me. And the second video that I uploaded went viral. It went so viral that like TikTok page on TikTok posted it. It had like 50 plus million views on YouTube. I think there were like, in India, WhatsApp all the things. A lot of these aunties had WhatsApp always completely of this video, and it was so funny that my mom received a WhatsApp for [unintelligible] look who this person is. And my mom is like, that is my child. So like things did very well. I think like once the first, once the second video went viral, that’s when I can build the confidence that you know, that this can be a full-time career, and this is something that I could make money from. So I guess it was a sign you know, like I think the world keeps on giving you a signs. So I just, you know, took this as a big, big, big sign because at the same time, things were going downhill with my relationship between my, between my co-founder and me, which like the co-founder of the company I was working at and me. And so if things are going downhill over there and the things were like, going uphill with content and dance in the creative industry. I thought it the perfect sign. And like, I didn’t think twice about whether I was going to take off quitting my sustainable job and end up pursuing a career in the performing arts.

[00:11:58] Amardeep: Have you regretted that at all since you made that decision?

[00:12:01] Rohit: Never in my life. I’m happy. It’s the happiest life I’m living right now, and I guess this is something I’ve always wanted to do. And I consider myself really, really, really fortunate to be able to pursue my passion professionally, because I don’t think a lot of people get a chance to do that.

[00:12:16] Amardeep: Have you found it since becoming like a full time creator, so, well, you’re now working as an assistant director on a movie, right? So you said that was a bit of an adjustment too, because you’re going from, full-time being your own boss and doing things in your own terms to now working for somebody else. And it’s still in the creative industry and you’re going to be learning about, but it’s slightly different to what you were doing before, right? And you’ve moved out to Bombay to do that.

[00:12:40] Rohit: Yeah. So essentially what happened was while COVID happened, obviously my plans to build the studio came to a complete stand still because it didn’t make any sense investing so much money to build a space when you could not really, you know, host offline events, like in this case, dance workshop, the teaching of content, right? Or content creation. Right. And from then onwards, I just focused on creating a lot of content on Instagram, and to my surprise, one of my videos was seen by current Karan Johar, who’s the owner of Dharma Productions and also a fantastic filmmaker. And he ended up following me on Instagram, and I didn’t know for the first 10 days that, until like one of my other friends from LA was just like, why didn’t you tell us that Karan Johar follows you on Instagram? And I’m just like, well, I didn’t know. Like I genuinely didn’t know because I was just so busy creating so much content that I had, that I didn’t check my notifications enough, and then finally, [unintelligible] those a follow back button and I’m just like, oh, damn, I need to follow him back. And then obviously drop him a message, and when I dropped him a message, he was like, we should catch up, and then when we caught up, do you know what do you want to do? So I said that I want to act and choreograph, but obviously not just an Instagram or for Instagram or creating content for the audience over here, but I wanted to act and choreograph in films and films have always been a childhood dream. You know, like this is the largest form, or the biggest form of media and entertainment in the world, and this is where I want to be. I think being on the big screen is always exciting or doing things with bigger budgets and bigger production houses has always been a super, super, super exciting journey to take. And I told him that’s what I want to do. And he said, well, you just need to be on a filmset. You need to learn camera. You need to be an assistant director for one film. Then you give examples, like, [unintelligible] examples like [unintelligible] and all these have been assistant directors before they actually went out to do what they wanted to do which is eventually act on screen. So here you just need one from experience, and then from there you can take it forward of like how you want to shape your current film. So while I knew it was going to be a massive shift from content to film, I knew it was going to, you know, maybe make me lose followers, I knew it was maybe going to have much less engagement on Instagram than I currently do. Also, like I knew it was going to be, [unintelligible], but I knew I was going to lose followers, I knew my engagement was going to drop significantly compared to what it was, what it used to be back in the day. I’m just like it’s okay. You know, like life is about taking risks. You just need to take a risk and you know, this very common thing, [unintelligible], you know? So I guess I just kept that in mind and I’m just like, you know, like eventually I want to work toward a bigger dream, which was like work in films and things may be at a standstill with Instagram, but I guess it’ll take me one step forward to where I want to be in the world of films and industry. It also kind of reminds me of this one saying that my friend told me. He’s like, you know, it’s okay to take a standstill because sometimes you may need to [unintelligible]. And I think that saying has always just, you know, driving me forward since I heard that.

[00:15:24] Amardeep: Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:16:00] For people who are listening, who aren’t aware of who Karan Johar is, so if you’re from the Western audience, I’m trying to think of a good way to explain how big he is. So let’s say, I would say the number one chat show in India, he’s the host, right? Would you say he’s number one show of Karan?

[00:16:16] Rohit: Number one chat show in India, I think Coffee with Karan works is because he’s been one of the biggest filmmakers of you know, like ever in India.

[00:16:24] Amardeep: It’s kind of like the equivalent, almost like Steven Spielberg or somebody like that. Like he’s absolutely massive for him to find you and reach out to you. And some of the people you mentioned as well about people who were assistant directors, who then became actors, the people, you mentioned are some of the biggest stars in Bollywood. So if you haven’t heard of them, you can check them out afterwards, you can drop links, but it’s a really big deal for you to be working on a Karan Johar film. And if you check out Rohit’s page after this, you will see why, because you can see like how infectious his energy is in his dancing, and it makes it understandable to me why such a big film director would reach out to you, but like that must’ve just been, when you were looking for signs of like, is this the right career for me? Like have I made the right choice? To get that kind of validation, must’ve just been massive for your confidence.

[00:17:15] Rohit: 100%. Like, I think it’s like a cross-pollination of luck, fortune, destiny, hard work, talent. I think all meeting together in one place, I guess there is a, you know, like I do believe in stars do align, but I guess it’s just a start. So I definitely don’t want to jinx anything moving forward. It’s just a start. It’s a, I think, I guess like, I guess like my favorite thing to say is it’s just always the big thing, because there’s always so much to grow and so much to learn. And I don’t want to ever take any opportunity for granted or I don’t ever be in a space where I’m taking the network that I’ve built or the, or like the connection that I’ve built so far, you know like, I don’t want to be an opportunity when I’m, we cut this out, but anyway, so I don’t want to be in a space where I’m taking anything for granted where there are opportunities, with the people that I actually meet with. So I just want to find a way to keep growing, keep learning, keep working hard. Like, I guess so, you know, like the sky’s the limit.

[00:18:01] Amardeep: So at the moment, are you still working on the film at the moment or is that finished now? Is that wrapped up?

[00:18:05] Rohit: We’re still working on the film. So I joined about a year ago. I joined July 2021, somewhere on my birthday, so when I was 25. I am, I think the film is going to end somewhere in August, 2022. So I think slightly over a year, you know, to be completely finished, but I think we’re going to end in a couple of months.

[00:18:20] Amardeep: That’s a long time for a film recording. Right?

[00:18:23] Rohit: It’s insane. Like I can’t even explain. Like the scale of this film is insane because I think the reason why so much, it’s taking so long, cause we’re not shooting like some Avengers, heavy action oriented, heavy VFX oriented film, we’re just shooting like a living room drama. It’s normally not hectic. But it’s a rom-com which a romantic comedy. But I guess the reason why the film becomes so long because we have so many locations. So [unintelligible] we switch a location, it becomes a new shooting day cause we can’t travel and shoot on the same day. And so I guess for that reason, there are just so many locations. I think they have over like a hundred locations, if I’m not mistaken. So we always just like shooting and moving, shooting and moving, so I guess that’s the reason why it’s taking so long. And also the scale of the film is huge. Like if you’re shooting a song, it’s not like 30 dancers in a song. It’s like 600 dancers in a song, you know, so.

[00:19:11] Amardeep: Are you appearing as a dancer in the film?

[00:19:13] Rohit: No, I’m just an assistant director.

[00:19:15] Amardeep: Okay. So once this film is wrapped up, what’s the kind of next steps for you? What are you planning to do?

[00:19:20] Rohit: So while the film is still happening I’m currently training as an actor. I’m currently trying to audition in as many spaces as I can. The idea is to choreograph for movies. And the idea is to act and be on the big screen one day. So I’ll do whatever it takes to get there. I don’t know what’s going to happen because I think the creative industry is filled with opportunities and you don’t know what or call that comes in tomorrow is going to change your life. And how a call is going to be made to you tomorrow is going to change your life. So considering the fact that opportunities are always coming and it’s always, you know, going, nothing’s ever certain. So I feel, I don’t want to plan too ahead, but I know the vision that I’m kind of going towards, which is acting in movies and the [unintelligible],

[00:19:59] Amardeep: Obviously acting that can be quite a difficult career as well, because like you said, like you’re moving around a lot, there can be long times on sets. What’s the kind of ideal balance you want in the future? Would you want to be doing lots of films, lots of different things? Like you said about your dance studio, do you still want to do that as well? Build a dance studio space where you can have different people coming in. What’s kind of the dream going forwards?

[00:20:22] Rohit: To be honest, before I entered the creative industry as a content creator slash dancer slash actor slash choreographer, I was heavily involved in entrepreneurship and I that’s a huge reason also to go, you know, kind of build my own university was, you know, I want to go build a space that actually where we will, you know, where we can bridge the gap between school and the real world. And I was heavily inspired by Shark Tank. And I guess that’s what also got me hooked to the idea of entrepreneurship. So my ideal, or like, not like not ideal career path, but a career path that I do resonate with is someone like Ashton Kutcher where, you know, he was an actor before, but then eventually ended up being, you know, like moving on towards being an entrepreneur slash venture capitalist. And I feel like that’s the kind of combination I want to have. So right now, I’m just focused on acting and photographing because I do think being an actor has a shelf life, just like any of the athletes. So I want to focus on that, and then the idea is once that is established then the artist will probably like go out, build studio. You know, become a judge on a TV show. Maybe you produce your own show. I don’t know. They’re like endless opportunity. Maybe build a business, maybe like relive my education dream. And you know, maybe build a university around it that also has a creative industry as like a, you know, [unintelligible]. So I guess, like there’s so many things that I do want to do eventually, but as of now, my focus is is to be an actor and a choreographer. That’s like the short-term focus.

[00:21:34] Amardeep: I can’t imagine you being a venture capitalist and stopping dancing. [unintelligible] venture capitalist, doing business or whatever, but you’re not going to stop dancing, right?

[00:21:43] Rohit: I will never stop dancing. I guess it’s the idea of you know, like doing, like there are I think about, seven to eight things that I really want to do in my life, but step-by-step. I guess like the best advice someone has always given me, or I guess most people always give me, it’s like, you can do everything you want, but you have to do it step by step. You have to master one. Once one is mastered, then you go and move on to the next. And then once the next one master, then you have two things stable at the same time, then you can move on with the next. So I guess I want to take it step by step and let’s see where it goes. I don’t know what’s going to happen next week. I don’t think what was going to happen 10 years from now, but there’s a lot of things I want to do in life. Yeah.

[00:22:14] Amardeep: Because you’ve been dancing your entire life, right. So it’s going to be is a hobby on the side, and you did competitions at university, now it was in content creation, now it’s going to be in movies, and then it’s almost poetic in a way that you’re going to go back to making it a hobby potentially in the future where you’ve got your business, the other things on the side, but like the one constant throughout your entire life is going to be dancing. It’s kind of different meanings to you at different times, but you’re always going to have that joy going through your life.

[00:22:40] Rohit: A hundred percent. I guess, it’s beautiful to experience that in different spaces and times, because I guess when it was a hobby, it meant something to me, when it wasn’t competition, it did mean something to me and I think now, when I want to really be a choreographer in films, or even be a performer as an actor slash dancer on the big screen, [unintelligible], it means something else to me. So I guess like, it’s just so funny because whatever you said, you know, just like released, this just hit something really hard about, you know, like hard on the head of the nail, because I never thought about this before, but now when I think about this, the idea of dance actually means a lot to me. And I think like, it’s changed you know, throughout like different, different times. But one thing that has always stayed common is that it’s given me a sense of joy that maybe some other activity might have not be. You know, like might have not given me.

[00:23:21] Amardeep: How have you found this transition from when it was just a hobby to being a job, part of your job, whether it’s acting or content creation, did you find there was more pressure? Because, and it’s happened to me, for example, in writing. Once it became my full-time job, then I felt more pressure to be good at writing. Do you feel that at all or is it just the love for what you do just overwhelms it or have you dealt with the pressure that you’ve had?

[00:23:46] Rohit: Good question. Never really thought about it before. Because I guess the sense of pressure hasn’t really kicked in yet. Maybe when I was creating a lot of content at one point of time, people always looking forward to the next video, so I guess the only thing in my head was how can I make this one better than the previous one? And that’s the only thing I really cared about or thought about, I didn’t care about anything else. I didn’t care about whether it was good, whether it was bad. I just wanted to level up. And I guess maybe, you know, maybe always thinking about growing and maybe like going one up from the previous video, kind of you know, help me take the pressure off me, but also helped me like come back to the pressure a little better than otherwise. [unintelligible] because I think in this space, I was very focused on what I wanted to do, but I guess like, if I didn’t have a sense of direction, I think the sense of, you know, anxiousness and the pressure would really get to me and maybe, you know, maybe not let me create the best, the best work possible. But I think just this thinking about the one thing that I only have to grow and I only have to do better and I only have to get it better than the previous one. You know, got me driving forward and made me come back better.

[00:24:42] Amardeep: What do you think is the best thing about like the choice you made in life now? Because for me, the biggest thing I’ve done is, by becoming a full-time creative, I’ve met so many amazing people, and I imagine it’s probably quite similar for you. Because I’ve just seen the amount of people you’ve collaborated with, and it just seems so like amazing, you’re kind of living out your dream in a way.

[00:25:02] Rohit: Very true. I guess like a huge part about you know, like doing this professionally is also that, the people that once you looked up to are also now your friends, and you also get a chance to connect with them, and you also kind of learn from them, and also kind of, you know, just understand how they work, how their mind works, what kind of lifestyle do they live? And you’re also dealing with some of the people in the industry that have literally defined entertainment in India, or literally have a reason for, you know, why people enjoy movies so much, you know? And I guess like just being around them and being able to connect with them, chat with them and really like, you know, you know, dive into their mind is the biggest benefit from this option. Just like you, like, I’m sure you’ve had the same feeling of, you know, when you were kind of going through this transition of making your passion your profession as a full-time content writer slash content creator. You’ve you also have the option to connect with people, I guess, like mine will be the same, because I believe that one big reason for humans to be happy is actually connecting with people and actually building quality relationships. I mean, I guess we are social animals for for a reason, right? So I think building quality relationships is something that really leads, really makes me happy. It’s something I’m a sucker for. So being able to be you know, build these relationships with top level dogs in the industry is definitely a huge benefit.

[00:26:13] Amardeep: Yeah. For like the people listening today, what’s one mindset shift do you think they could make that would make a positive difference to their lives?

[00:26:21] Rohit: Well, you know, I guess like this is something that always, you should tell me that, always think about the bigger picture because you know, every time I’m going through you know, down phase in life, or every time I’m irritated about something that really I want to give a bashing to somebody in the face, you know when I really want to like say my 2 cents to someone and give it back to him or her? My brother’s always calmed me down and being like, Think about five years from now, is this going to make a difference to your life. And if it doesn’t make a difference to your life, just leave it. If it makes a difference for your life, work towards it. And I guess that one question just keeps on, you don’t make me, you know, like keeps on, keeps on making me think that it’s just about the bigger picture sometimes. You know, your downfalls, your challenges, your, you know, like your failures, your battles, they’re all part of, you know, like this big puzzle that you’re solving, which is life. And I guess they’re all like small pieces of the puzzle. But if you do not, you know, live those moments, maybe a puzzle is never over, you know, there might be always some empty piece in your life and like, I guess, wait. Actually, I’m going to [unintelligible]. You know, guys, like all these, all your battles, your struggles and your failures, they’re all like small pieces of the puzzle. We have this big puzzle called life. And I guess like, if you do not relive those moments, you may just not be living life entirely. Yeah. So one thing that’s always allowed me to focus on the right things, or the focus on like, the more positive things of life is to think about the bigger picture, because once you think about the bigger picture, you think about what’s going to make a difference five years from now, the things that irritate you in the short-term or like, you know, make you feel low in the short-term actually, you know just adding up to your long-term future.

[00:27:49] Amardeep: I think it’s life’s like a story, right? So there’s no story you’ve ever read where everything goes perfectly. It’s, you have these little things that go wrong and then you change your mind and then things don’t turn out how you expect, but that’s what makes life interesting, right? Like if everything always went perfectly, you’d run out of things to do. You get bored. But you have the different challenges and then you find your way, and then that’s what makes it interesting, and like with your story right now, right? It’s interesting to hear your story where you didn’t know exactly what you were going to do at the beginning. You went into different things and you realized, actually I like this more, whereas if it was just like, I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I did that. Stories over. There’s no story.

[00:28:28] Rohit: Exactly. And it’s so funny because I guess like my parents come from a generation where they picked one job, did that job for 50 years of their life, retired after that, and built enough savings to run a family. And again, they came from that generation, but I guess we come from the generation where you know, we have that flexibility to innovate or like we have that flexibility, you know, to kind of, you know, go out, live fashions because I guess like the generation that leaves my parents came from other generation of surviving, where you would choose you know, building a lifestyle to survive. I guess now, we’ve reached the space where, you know, where we’ve, you know, what technology has, boomed so quickly that it has allowed a lot of people to innovate and think about what the world could actually be, and I think we’ve entered that phase of innovation and like, global technological expansion. And I get there are a lot of people to be entrepreneurs versus like employees, as well as content creators versus like, you know, just like attending a normal nine to five job as well. So I guess like, you know, that shift has really like, kind of driven me to, you know, be like, it’s okay if you’re jumping jobs, it’s okay, if you’re jumping, you know, between careers. It’s okay, if you like doing things, I’m figuring it out. Like I’m 24, 25 right now. I was 22 when I graduated college. It’s okay. There’s no 22 year old, actually, there are many, but not many 22 year olds are finally sustainable. Not many 22 year olds have like, you know, figured it out in life. It’s okay. You know, I’m figuring it out, and I guess we’ll know in a couple of years, it’s just, you know, the whole story just came down to, you know, this is what I wanted to do as a child. You know, like [unintelligible] full 360, my life has made a full 360 and I’ve come back to the actually doing what I wanted to do with the child. So yeah. Now I guess like, it may change 10 years from now, but I guess for the next couple years, this is it.

[00:30:09] Amardeep: I think that’s a really good point because we keep changing, so even if you think you’ve got life worked out right now, in a few years time, you might, like you said, decide actually I really want to do the business side rather than the acting side. So it’s kind of you’ve always got to check in with yourself and work out what actually matters to me right now, and act on that because it’s quite dangerous thing for people to think about, I’m going to stay exactly the same in 10 years time, because it could be completely different. Like I have no idea if in 10 years time, I’m still going to be writing, or still doing podcasting, or anything. What I know is right now, I’m enjoying this, and I get to meet people like you. And as long as I’m enjoying it, then we’ll keep doing it.

[00:30:48] Rohit: Who knows? You could probably be a yacht owner for the matter of fact, you could probably like, you know, run like an international business online, and you could probably make the next Amazon. Who knows, right? I guess there’s one popular saying that’s always, you know, like makes me think that it’s okay not to be stuck to what you’re always doing right now which is, the only constant is change, and we are living in a world where everything’s changing consistently. So yeah, that’d be like, I guess, like, you know, be present, and be in the moment, and it will lead you to the next opportunity.

[00:31:14] Amardeep: And I think as well, too, like if it says to me it’s been about 10 years since I left university. And I think that how different the paths that people have taken are. Like you’d never expect it, right? Most people I went to university with would never expect me to be doing a podcast or to be an online writer or to have the views I have. So it’s quite easy to think about, we can put people in boxes sometimes. We can put ourselves in boxes. We think this is who we are. In reality, like we’re much more than that, and this so much we’re able to change and to be flexible, and to find new things that make us happy.

[00:31:51] Rohit: I love what you said, because I believe that human potential is enormous, and sometimes we are limited to what we do by the profession that we choose. But who says that this is what you have to do for the rest of your life? You know, like where is it written, which person has said that if you only do this for the rest of your life, you will be living a sustainable career? Who cares? Five years from now, you can switch roles. Like 10 years from now, you can switch roles. It doesn’t really matter. Tomorrow, you can switch roles. It really doesn’t matter. As long as you’re able to, you know, survive in life, make enough money for you to be able to like, you know, fulfill your basic necessities, or your luxuries, if you have any, and you’re able to live a happy, sustainable life, that’s all that matters.

[00:32:26] Amardeep: It’s been amazing to talk to you Rohit. Where can the people listening find out more about you and what you’re up to?

[00:32:32] Rohit: Well, so I guess I’m very, very, very active on Instagram. It’s called juniorjethu. I would absolutely love to connect with people. Please do drop a DM. If you do like a word, please do follow me up there. It would be great to connect with some people, if you’ve heard this podcast, please do mention it. But yes, would love to connect with as many people out there listening to this podcast. And I definitely want to give a huge shout out to my man, Amardeep who’s sitting like in London right now, and I’m sitting in Bombay right now, and we’re connecting over this call. But a huge shoutout to him. Absolutely love the purpose of this podcast. I think more than just [unintelligible] connecting us together. The purpose of this podcast really drew me, you know, to like, you know, like [unintelligible] wanting to do this, so thanks for taking the initiative and thanks for having me.

[00:33:09] Amardeep: Yeah, it’s been a pleasure to talk to you honestly. But the thing I finish off with is what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently?

[00:33:17] Rohit: Yeah, well I guess like, the most recent thing that actually happened was I’d gone back to Puni for a couple of days. The day I was leaving, there were a couple guests that came over, and my mom invited them. They were actually coming over for the first time. So we had never met them in our life. They had never met us in their life. They were coming over for the first time. We just knew each other. Me and their daughter were connected, you know, like through some way or the other. And so they’re just coming over for a quick breakfast and they’re having a chat, and I guess like when I met her for the first and they’re like, oh, I’ve seen this guy somewhere, you know, I’ve seen him on one of these dance videos, like I’m a huge fan of this guy. And I guess like that sense of you know, that small interaction just bought me a lot of joy because when you’re creating so much content and you’re always in the studio, you’re always in front of the camera, you don’t really see, you know, if you don’t like, this is making a real impact or not. The only impact that you get to see is through comments. And that does give you that sense of instant gratification and that instant success or that instant joy for like, maybe like the day or two, but then you don’t really see if this is actually making an impact on someone for long. Do they actually remember you? Do they actually, you know, remember your content? Or do they actually remember who you are, or your profile, or do they recommend your profile to a couple of other people? When instances like this happens in real life, it’s just everything, because I guess like, after working on the film, which being an assistant director to Karan, I’ve not had the opportunity to create as much content. Within the past eight months, I’ve only created like three or four videos which is very low. I should create about six to eight videos a month. I think that was like the pace I was going at before. So I guess like, you know, just, you know, just knowing that when you’re like still so inactive on Instagram and focusing on like the film career, you still have people that are actually remember your work that happened in 2019. And I guess like, you know, just knowing that, made me feel happy and made me, you know, like have that sense of joy, and I was just happy to know that someone actually still remembered you and your work.

[00:35:09] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes.

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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The post How To Attract The Job YOU Want & Strive For Your Dream Life w/ Rohit Jethwani first appeared on Amardeep.

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Welcome to episode 51 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 51’s guest is Jivraj Singh Sachar. He’s the host of Building the Indian Silicon Valley Podcast whilst also working a day job at AngelList. By the time this episode comes out, Jivraj would have interviewed over a hundred entrepreneurs from the Indian space including some of the biggest names of billionaires and unicorn companies – and he is only in his early twenties!

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels.

• You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health:  https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Find more about Jivraj:  https://www.angellistindia.com/
• Follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jivraj_sachar?lang=en
• Follow him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jivrajsinghsachar/

Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• Experimentation (1:40)
• To have amazing and fulfilling conversations (6:52)
• Priorities, time, and energy management (10:47)
• Health, friendships, and following through with your decisions (17:15)
• You have to equally be good at saying no than saying yes (23:19)
• Creating something of value (28:35)

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Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

—————————————————-———————————————

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jivraj: I think the conventional wisdom is mostly around, what can you do to get to a point, that figure it out? I never knew how it would get to this point and I hope it’s only going to surprise me even further. So many things that we think we want to do. There’s so many goals that we think we want to achieve, but if we’re not doing things to move the needle a lot, if you’re not prioritizing it, then the simple answer is it’s probably not important for us.

[00:00:28] Amardeep: Welcome to Mindful and Driven podcast, where we help you to not lose sight of what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Jivraj Singh Sachar, who’s the host of the Indian Silicon Valley podcast. Whilst also working a day job at AngelList, by the time this episode comes out, Jivraj would have interviewed over a hundred entrepreneurs from the Indian space, including some of the biggest names of billionaire and unicorn companies. And he’s only in his early twenties. It was a pleasure to chat with him, and we went on for ages after we finished recording. I hope you enjoy listening today.

[00:01:05] Welcome to Mindful and Driven podcast Jivraj. It’s a pleasure to have you here.

[00:01:08] Jivraj: Thank you so much. I’m really glad to be here Amardeep. Really excited about what’s in the conversation.

[00:01:14] Amardeep: How I actually heard about you is because one of my friends, Vaish, she’s been on my podcast, she put on to somebody else’s post and they asked, what are your favorite podcasts? And she listed mine, yours, and a couple of others. So I was like, oh, who’s this guy? I’m going to check them out. And then I’ve listened to a few of your episodes and you’ve, you’re only 23 and you’ve managed to get such great guests and it must have been so much to be able to learn from them. And through that experience, you must have heard so much advice. Is there any other common advice that you disagree with along that way?

[00:01:45] Jivraj: Yeah. I mean, common advice that I disagree with, in that aspect, one of the things is, you know, just, I mean, a lot of people talk about building expertise and a lot of people talk about being satisfied. A lot of people talk about it like goal-setting right? But I think all of that does not meet reality when you hit the ground. And I think what’s worked for me is that let’s say you don’t just experimenting, not trying to be good at just one thing, punching above my weight, and just trying a bunch of things before I get there. So I think conventional wisdom is mostly around, okay, what can you do to get to a point? But I think defining that point because very, very important at the very start, and what’s worked for me, I mean, with the podcast is, I guess pretty much just trying to like figure it out. I never knew how it would get to this point. And I hope it’s only go to surprise me even further. But what I, what I did continue doing is at no point do I listen to conventional wisdom stating that, okay, you may not be able to get this person, you may not be able to continue this for awhile, you’re probably not utilizing your time, the best. Why don’t you get an internship with [unintelligible], and all of these anecdotes that I heard. I thankfully did not listen to. Not to say that it was any, in any way disrespectful or anything. [unintelligible] everybody came from a place of concern, but that’s mostly, you know, the general advice that you’ll get, but instead you are do something [unintelligible]. It makes sense to, kind of once in a while, do what you want to and not listen to all of this conventional [unintelligible], maybe just explore, by yourself I would say.

[00:03:18] Amardeep: I think that’s such an important point about experimentation because sometimes people think they have the perfect plan before they make a change. So they’re not happy at the moment and they don’t change their situation because they don’t know exactly what they want to do, and sometimes it’s, you’re not going to find out what you want to do just by sitting around. Sometimes it’s just try things out, maybe you like it, maybe you don’t, but you only find out when you actually start it. And I kind of worry about some people who will make a really detailed plan, about this is what I’m going to do, but it’s like, you have no idea if you’re going to enjoy that or not. So it’s good to like experiment a little bit, not put too much skin in the game, then if it goes wrong, that’s okay. You can try something else. If you decided this is going to change my life. This can make you much happier. Everything’s gonna be much better. Now what happens if you don’t enjoy it? Did you have any thoughts like that when you were going through the podcast?

[00:04:07] Jivraj: I did, and in fact this is not the only time I tried. There were a couple of things. I mean, again, I’m not as drastic as it may seem. However, I had my shadow of doubt to myself wherein I actually joined a job which was not as calculated a decision, which did not work out. Before the podcast, I had a project which is again, a passionate project, but I was speaking to a bunch of folks and writing down their stories in different format and publishing it on a blog. I had to leave that midway because it was not compounding as well. And so even after that, I pursued the podcast because I felt like, I mean again, by talking to so many people, I’ve realized that it’s never about getting the decision right or wrong. It’s more about how deliberate can you be about that pathway, right? Because, I think as you mentioned, sometimes we’re just too blind about a process because we feel we’ll get to a destination, that once we get there, we realize that maybe it was not worth it, right? And that’s too costly a journey to go through. And then instead of being, you know, instead, why don’t you be deliberate about the pathways? I think, and each one along the way, I just told myself that, okay, even if it did work this time, I did all the things I could, right? And I was as focused, as deliberate, as conscious about that choice as I possibly could be. And since I had done that, I felt it brought out the best out of me either way. It’s always difficult. I mean, this person defined, I had a guest on the show who talked about the speed of shit. When everything feels like, you know, it’s not going your way, because then you’re starting something, it’s very [unintelligible] and feels very nice because you know, you have that young energy, but then there comes a point wherein you start questioning, whether or not [unintelligible] value, whether or not it’s going well, whether or not it’s just me listening, right? To the podcast as well a few times and, I’d be like, okay, is this at all adding value to anybody? But only to realize that it doesn’t matter. I mean, am I enjoying it? Am I loving it? Am I out there, you know, having fun? And when all those things said, yes, and am I deliberate about where this is leading? I knew my answer. So I think, it’s just like going back to the fundamentals of, just like trusting yourself at that point in time and being deliberate. If you’re blind about it, and even if things are going well, it’s better to pause, reflect, and be true to yourself than just going, because any good thing or a bad thing is, those are outcomes, right? Those you can’t control, but what you can control is the process because if you start controlling only the outcomes, then you’re just praying, right? You can get lucky, whatnot. Right? But if you can consistently follow a process, you ought to get there once, and then the outcome gets taken care of either way.

[00:06:42] Amardeep: You mentioned before we started recording that you don’t want to monetize your podcast because you’ve been growing it so much, you want to keep it as that pure hobby or something you enjoy doing without needing to be like, oh, how can I make more money? Or how can I get adverts? All of that kind of stuff. And can you talk us through your thoughts behind that?

[00:07:00] Jivraj: I think of course the caveat there that I mentioned to everyone in personal conversations is also that I come from a privileged point, where my life sustenance does not depend on the podcast, but even without it, what I’ve realized is, the objective for me with the podcast is to learn, to grow, and to just like experience new things, have new conversations. The day I think about, you know, what sponsor to get, what bank to get, and whatnot it just gets a bit maligned, right? And that is something I never thought I wanted to do with a hobby because it’s pure, right? It started off with the pureness of my curiosity, and it still continues to do that right? At any given point, when I think I’m not researching as well or something of the kind, I question myself and I’m not liking the process. And that I enjoy. And that’s a personal feat I enjoy because I haven’t gotten the groove where this is purely a learning activity that nobody’s holding me accountable for. But I get, I continue doing this week on week for, and I’ve done that for the last one and a half years. And that’s only because my objective is to have an amazing conversation and make it extremely fulfilling for the guests as well. And when I keep it as pure as that, it just works out well. So I think just not trying to deviate myself from what the original goal is, in fact, one, another thing that I do, and again, I don’t know this conventional or not, but everybody talks about, you know, why didn’t you build a team around this, why don’t we scale it, why do you, give up, you know, the editing process? One thing that I hold so dear to my process is editing myself, because I feel that keeps me very, very close to what I’m doing, because I get to, you know, understand what it is that I’ve done through a show, what it is that I did right or wrong to an episode. I in fact, get to learn and grasp my own content as a listener when I’m listening to the guests I’ve hosted. And that is amazing. I mean, there have been times when I’ve, you know, edited for four or five hours because it took me that much time, but I was with an exercise book, taking notes from that conversation because I was so fascinated by what was being produced in and of itself. And I think that kind of vigor only stays if your pure, because if I was money minded about it, no disrespect to anybody who is. I’m sure [unintelligible] economy. So those doing that, I really laud their efforts, but for me, I am sure like if it was a money object, I probably wouldn’t focus on, let’s have mechanical things such as let’s say editing, right? But I am to do it because I do this by will, by choice, and I love doing it. And that’s what I mean keeps driving me in that direction. So I’m happy to spend a night on editing, not because It’s a financial objective at the end of it, but because of the kind of learning, the kind of difference it makes to my process and that I truly cherish. I mean, these are the small things that kind of fulfill me, and that’s why it becomes a very wholesome process, to be very honest.

[00:09:53] Amardeep: One of the things I’ve done myself is I’ve outsourced my editing because of just trying to balance my time and my efforts. And I really enjoyed the conversations. And like I said, I do enjoy listening back to it as well, but I find that with the editing process, it often became something which I always did last, so I was always trying to do it last minute, just with with the episode that’s come out and it put me under quite a lot of stress. So now release that, and what I tried to do is, instead is, once the episode has come out, I then listen to it again and I write about it. So I removed myself from some of the editing process, but then that’s the way I tried to like take the lessons back out of it again. And obviously with what you’re doing, cause you’re working at like the AngelList, you’ve got pretty long hours there sometimes. How are you able to manage this all? Has there ever been a point where you really struggled for your balance?

[00:10:42] Jivraj: There have been multiple times that, I mean, that’s a constant struggle to be honest. But it doesn’t feel like one. I mean, it doesn’t feel like it is a struggle, or a major challenge. Of course I have my days where it feels overwhelming, right. It feels like the weight of the world is on your shoulders. It may not necessarily be so, but I mean with work, I often dabbled with this question myself and the answer that I’ve tried to come to is that, you know, I never forget sleeping and I’m sure you don’t either. You don’t forget your meals, right? So the way the podcast has been engineered in my system, is by becoming a habit, I don’t think there has been any, like, I could maybe think of one in the last 10, Friday evenings or nights that I’ve been out or been doing something else and not editing the podcast. I can’t think of a Sunday morning, but I’m not a, you know, worked on the post-publication aspects of the podcast. It’s just become a part of me. And so that’s why I’ve been able to carve out time because when it becomes a part of you, it becomes, I think, I don’t know, you’re just prioritizing. I remember the guests on my show mentioning that it’s less about time management, and more about energy management, or prioritizing. Because nobody has the time in the world for things that you do want to prioritize. And everybody has the time of the world for positive energy people, for positive energy interactions, for things that don’t feel like work. And I think that has really helped me. And I guess I was lucky but, before I joined my full-time role. I was dabbling with a couple of things in my career. I started the podcast already. So I was in that frame. I understand it’s incredibly difficult, and I truly empathize with people who can still do it with like a full-time job or at least start with a full-time job for that commitment and then continuing, because it’s incredibly difficult that way, but I was already [unintelligible]. I had much to lose because I knew what the experiences could do to me and do for me. And so I kind of just made it a point to keep at it, weather the storm. You come into the routines, build the small things. I think, I don’t know. For instance, I’m trying to now develop a habit to become healthier. It would be like a very small thing, but I haven’t been able to take time. And when I questioned myself, honestly, I don’t think I don’t have the time. I just think it’s job priority for me. Like I mean, if I can take out three hours to edit, I can definitely take thirty minutes to, you know, go for a run. So I mean, that’s there, it comes down to the basics, but yeah. I just don’t think of it as work. It doesn’t feel like it. And that’s why, with workers, thankfully I’ve met some amazing colleagues. It doesn’t feel like, you know, after days of work, I have to do the podcast as well. It feels like, oh! It was an amazing day of work. I now have to do the podcast as well. And just the changing tone, I think, manages energy decently well for me to keep at it. Even in this interaction as well. For instance, we blocked out an hour for this, right? We are now speaking for the first 14 minutes ourselves, and that didn’t feel like any time utilization or not, you know, optimal time usage. It just felt like a natural extension of positive vibes being exchanged. It didn’t feel like time utilization, whatnot, right?

[00:13:57] Amardeep: And I think what you said there about energy management and priorities, I think the phrase is true. It’s that your priorities aren’t what you say your priorities are. They’re what you actually do. If you say I prioritize my health, but you don’t prioritize, you don’t do anything [unintelligible], then you do prioritize your health. That’s what you tell yourself you do. [unintelligible] Maybe there’s people listening today who are going to be thinking, oh wait, yeah, that’s true. Because I said it myself, I’m going to do this or I’m going to do that, and then I don’t do it because I’m doing something else instead. So the thing that I do instead of what I wanted to do, that’s my real priority. And if I don’t like that, if I decide that’s, I don’t like that reflection of myself, of who I actually am. Then it’s up to me to change myself to do that. And it’s the difficult thing of sometimes our actions aren’t really in line with who we think we are or what we call, what we label ourselves.

[00:14:49] Jivraj: I love that. Right? Because there are so many things that we think we want to do. There are so many goals that we think we want to achieve, but if you’re not doing things to move the needle a lot, if you’re not prioritizing it, then the simple answer is it’s probably not important for us. That’s a tough truth to swallow, to be honest. And it takes a lot of majority and I’m guessing, I’m also not completely out there, but you have to call yourself out. And that’s probably one of the toughest things to do, right. Because it’s difficult to fool yourself very often. And you often get into that trap where, if we will and we console ourselves, we tell ourselves an alternative truth, while not accepting what the reality is. And I think that’s a tough pill to swallow, but if we could only just get into that habit, I think that’s a great point you mentioned. If we could just like, accept the small things, like, if I didn’t do this, it’s probably not a priority. And for the things that I did that probably was, I think I love that. I think that that sums it up very well.

[00:15:45] Amardeep: I think it’s also looking at why isn’t it our priority. So you said, for example, with your health. Is that, when you think logically, right? Health should beat all of our priorities because nothing else works if we’re not healthy. Like you can’t do the podcast if you’re not healthy. I can’t write if I’m not healthy. I can’t enjoy time with my friends or family if I’m not healthy. But it always gets kind of left behind. So it’s really looking at why is that the case and trying to like really get down to the bottom of that.

[00:16:10] Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:16:46] And then with your balanced, like you said, like you’re really enjoying the podcast and that’s something which comes easy to you. Are there any other areas you’re struggling with? Is that to do with trying to fit in this weekly run or trying to get the health side fit in as well?

[00:16:58] Jivraj: Yeah, I think, you know, like, I mean with health and with a bunch of things, I’d say there was a point where I was just very driven in the, in the best possible sense. You tend to, you’re always missing out. I think that’s like the concept of balance is so personal to everyone, right? But you define it yourself. And so sometimes prioritizing maybe your cardio, maybe your podcast and not prioritizing other things like eating habits, personal relationships, friendships, right? And I mean, if that becomes the case, then it’s a bit, [unintelligible] I think it boils down to not just looking at the immediate thing, right? So much of what we do, like it’s easy to get swayed by a short-term impact and very difficult to imagine what things can do in the long run. So maybe I don’t get to see the difference, as you mentioned, in our health, we don’t get to see the difference like every other day, but maybe like five years down the line I see. You can become obese, that I’ve, I’ve not like there’s some health issue that I can’t control, and then it strikes us. So that becomes the problem. With, you know, like maybe friendships, it feel like, okay, how’s it going to impact our friendship if we don’t meet for a week? That week becomes, then becomes a month, that becomes, I don’t know, a couple, a quarter, and then you just distance yourself, right? So I guess those are things, I mean, thankfully I recognize that. Those are the, it’s one of the things I’ve been able to tell myself that, okay, now you, you got to figure it out and you got to be decently, you know, balanced in that aspect, but I think what also helps, and again, this is another thing somebody mentioned on the podcast is, that instead of striving to do so much, it’s about striving to do a little thing really, really well, right? And this comes with maturity, [unintelligible] first line of thought, right? But I think once you’ve found those couple of things that you can let compound. The idea should be to just focus on it. And I struggled with this lot because I used to get swayed by almost every new project that comes on the docket. I would want to follow it. I would want to do things. I’d want to create, I don’t know, groups, I would want to tell people, or help people, talk to a lot of people, but [unintelligible] okay, that’s not sustainable. Can I focus on my work? Can I focus on my podcast? Can I focus on myself? And that is where I was like, okay, this is what I need to do. Now let’s figure it out under all of these [unintelligible], what works best. And I see [unintelligible], like I asked people what they would do to build better routines because I mean, with the podcast as well, I do have a routine, but I mean, if it gets broken, I can always manage it myself, right? But with some other things, you have to just be, again, very intellectually honest with yourself. I can’t tell myself that if I didn’t go for a run every morning, I go in the evening, then not skip it and stuff like that. Let’s just say mechanism, as I mentioned, lie to ourselves because it’s easy, right? But yeah, actually find balance in life, personal plus professional aspect, and that’s not being at its best, but I think I’m getting there. And yeah, hopefully I’ll be there, but yeah, I think somebody told me, when you take a decision, it’s about following through on that decision, and if that balance for you [unintelligible], that’s fine, but at least following through on that decision because you’re being cognizant about it, because what I love about founders is founders that again, not the most balanced folks, in my opinion, they, because so much of their time is skewed towards building something from scratch, which requires incredible effort to say the least, but then they commit to that. And them, that is the reality. That is that balance that they could do. They signed up for the fact that okay, 80% of their time is going to go into building and maybe the rest 20% is going to go to themselves, the family, whatnot, and then they’re okay with it. So I think the more important aspect is if you sign up for what you do, and if you can build the expectations for yourself, not for anybody external, I think that works out best because that oftentimes that we are not debate with ourselves stating that, I knew my life is probably going to be 70 30, but I want to strive towards 50 50, why? If you wanted [unintelligible] to a 70 30, then don’t follow somebody else’s definition of balance, maybe because the perspective, try to grasp it in yours, in your decision making framework and build from there, as opposed to like, you know, striving for a goal, which may not be achievable because you’ve committed to something else, and if you want to strive for it, maybe manage expectations for yourself better.

[00:21:20] Amardeep: So what I was going to say there is, it’s an interesting contradiction, you said, right? Because at the beginning you said you should need to experiment all at the time, then now you’re saying about keeping to a few lines, and what I think the gap is there is that, you experiment more if you’re unhappy. So if you’re unhappy, then what you should do is experiment. You should try to find different things that can bring you more joy. When you’ve got things that bring you joy, then that’s when you need to experiment less because you already have the things that are going, right. So I don’t think you should ever stop experimenting completely because you’re always going to have some things that spontaneity, like spontaneous and something’s a bit different, but that’s where I think the, the sort of experimentation goes is that if you’re a very unhappy experiment tons, try all these different things. Like maybe you want to start dancing, or maybe you to start a sport. Maybe you want to start this, or maybe you want to start that. If you’ve already found, let’s say, you already love playing cricket, then you don’t want to then take up another sport because then you might not be able to have enough time to play cricket anymore. And I think this is something I do, right? It’s like, I enjoy lots of different things, but I can’t do all of them at the same time because my body wouldn’t take it. My mind wouldn’t take it. So I’ve got to choose a few things to really focus on because I enjoy them more. And I think about it in terms of some people say like, oh, you’ve got 10 passions. You can’t have all of them at being as 10 out of 10, because you don’t have, like, there’s not enough space or not enough energy for you to give all of them properly. So sometimes by doing more things, when you enjoy them, you’re actually giving less mental energy to each one, which decreases their value. So it’s sometimes a hard choice to choose to not do something that you like doing because your overall life is better because of that. Have you found things like that in your life where you’ve given them up, even though you’ve enjoyed them because you can’t balance them with everything else you’ve got going on?

[00:23:11] Jivraj: I, firstly, I think that that’s completely spot on and that brings me to the point of, you know, an important realization that I don’t think I’ve practiced well enough is the art of saying no. I think, we often just store, so I think to your point of trying to understand, like, I think experimentation works great in the short run, but once you find something that you want to do, it makes more sense to keep pursuing it while at the same time, you’re experimenting on things that you still want. So I think that there’s a good, fine balance there as you imagine, right? I mean, in the long run, I think it’s best to, you know, strive to be great at the thing that you most enjoy and not having any divided venture, but in the short run, it makes more sense to find that long-term thing. I think I actually like that. But I think to your point of just trying to, you know, say no, right, of just saying to like find out things like you have to say no to eventually or drop. For [unintelligible] was such a thing, right. Which is like a very small initiative that I started. It became decently large when we hosted like 250 odd folks, we didn’t host them on a podcast but we did like, Zoom calls with them. We usually recorded, we [unintelligible] a bunch of these stories. We built a team super close to two folks from that team. Still they’re very good friends. We still have that website. We still have that Instagram page because it began as an Instagram blog, but there’s a point where I could take a step back, and at the end I said, okay, this is not maybe compiling as well, and there are gaps to be fulfilled there. So maybe I, you know, helped the two folks who really took charge of it, but I took a step back. And even now, you know, I mean, it’s the small things that you can’t respond to every email right away. And you find like a better, you can’t possibly strive to do that at the expense of you. You can’t possibly be a part of every new initiative that comes out. As much as you’d like, because, when you pick a time for something else, you’re taking it out, you’re not producing time, sadly. So you are taking it out of something that you already are doing. So you did not enjoy that aspect or you’re going to, you know, like cover up for it in some shape or form to make time for something else. So I think that understanding that there’s going to be a trade off and then, because we often, you know, we, again, it comes back to fooling ourselves in the sense that we could easily say that we’ll manage it, we’ll take our time somehow. I’ll sleep less. I’ll maybe eat less, I don’t know what. But it barely happens. And then you’re just playing catch up in all aspects. So I think this is something I’ve started learning at work, in fact. Somebody told me once that you have to equally be good at saying no than saying yes. If, sometimes even more. And that is almost again very counterintuitive to imagine because why say no to have income opportunity, right? Like, you’d probably be tempted to say yes, but if you can go back to the fundamentals of thinking that, okay, what is that going to do to you? And if it’s going to hamper what you’re already doing, because you can see a short term desire to battle, you should probably steer away from it because I think one of the single most important principles that the podcast has taught me is of compounding rate. In the first three months, I barely had listeners, but we had great speakers in the textbook sense of it. In the next three, it was rising, but it’s been 18 months now, and I can tell you that if I would have given up in the fifth month, I would have never, myself been able to imagine the impact of it. And I’m sure that if I do this for the next five years, I can’t predict where it’s going to lead. But what I can do is know that it’s going to lead to something and keep at it and let it compound, but not expect results in the next two years. So, I mean, just speaking that long-term perspective, this is also a learning that I’ve taken back from a bunch of founders that I holsted because for founders, it’s just superhuman how they’re able to think about the long run and be insanely focused towards building that outright. I mean, they have these 10 year goals, which can seem very imaginative to begin with, but I think it’s amazing how they can continue [unintelligible] until they reach that point after a while. And it’s incredibly difficult. I think practicing compounding is perhaps the most difficult thing that we can do as people. And I think I thought about that a lot and it’s easier said than done. Of course. Yeah, I guess seeing was being one takeaway and for the instincts, I think [unintelligible] bunch of other things that I consciously now don’t take up because I don’t have the bandwidth for and try [unintelligible] about it, as opposed to just like setting wrong expectations. That’s been a very important takeaway on which time to manage everything because I’m not super human and I can only do so much.

[00:27:46] Amardeep: In the long run, what are your goals with what you’re doing at the moment? You’re doing, you’re really enjoying what you’re doing at AngelList. And you’ve got the podcast on the side. Do you want to keep it that way in the future or are there other projects which in the future you want to kind of take on and you’re really excited by? They’re not for right now but in the long term, you think those would be probably you’d make time for?

[00:28:05] Jivraj: Yeah, I think one thing I can tell you for certainty is that I probably can’t predict the future because my life has taken such a 360 degree turn in the last two years. Thankfully, so I hope I continue getting surprised by myself in the next, in the near future as well. But yeah, the way I look at it, all of this is, I want to create something of value. Now, how that happens is a factor of mode and so the podcast is one way to make it happen wherein I try to, you know, add value to more people like myself who want to learn about entrepreneurship, who want to learn about building companies. And I think that’s how I kind of simplified it for me. But I want to keep at it so, it could be in the form of me starting a company, which I really want to do someday. So I hope I can, you know, achieve that goal. That is definitely one that I would certainly want to take up in my life for once. But till then, I mean, that’s [unintelligible] till then I try to explore my career. I wouldn’t say creative, I would say building side. The aspect that makes me want to, you know, build something productive and useful, valuable for a large group of people. One of my initiatives in terms of the podcast or at work is where the ideas can I be of value to every stakeholder that is at work. How I do that by [unintelligible] maybe my role and maybe what new things can I do, how efficient I am, how responsible I could be with with the podcast. It’s about time to think from the end [unintelligible]. Constantly taking feedback, constantly improving on the experience that our speaker has, constantly improving the experience for myself. And that’s what I try to do in this near term, but in the long-term yeah, I want definitely stay close to startups because I think that they are the best forms of innovation, of value creation that could possibly be. And hopefully, you know, create something of massive value in terms of, you know, impacting tangible lives in more ways than one. And if I could do that, I think I’d feel really satisfied. And that’s a feeling I want to have.

[00:30:11] Amardeep: It’s been a pleasure talking today Jivraj. Where can the people listening hear more about you, obviously about your podcast, and other things you’re doing? I’d love for them to listen to you too.

[00:30:19] Jivraj: I’ve been lucky to kind of have the podcast, so please tune in if you’re a, you know, a podcast person, or if you are an enthusiast about the Indian startup ecosystem. I love to talk personally to one-on-one with folks as well, so feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn. I’m usually very responsive there, or Twitter, I’m usually very responsive there as well, or anything else. In fact, if you’re up for conversation around venture, around cricket, around table tennis, around podcasting, and if you’re ever in that spectrum, I’m more than happy to chat and [unintelligible]. So feel free to hit me up and thank you so much Amardeep for having me. It’s been such a pleasure to know you and have this conversation. I think in the brief period that we’ve known each other, it’s been amazing to have these conversations and I’m so excited about what’s next to come for you with the kind of amazing things that you’re doing. So thanks for having me. And this was absolutely fantastic.

[00:31:18] Amardeep: You’re more than welcome, and it’s mutual. Me and Jivraj had a call before and we spoke for an hour and a half, two hours, as it was meant to be half an hour or an hour. Then like before we started recording today, me and him were talking for ages again, and we’re going to carry on talking after we finish recording the podcast. So he’s just a really nice guy and I really recommend you check him out. And the final thing to finish up on the podcast is, what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently?

[00:31:44] Jivraj: I think very recently, like my friends planned a surprise for me after I was very fortunate there. That was like a very, I think, a small newspaper publication that posted about the podcast. And my friends took me out on a Sunday morning and then a very small snippet [unintelligible] People [unintelligible], you know they had a couple of things written on it and I found it really nice that these were my sister, my parents, my girlfriend, and a bunch of my friends. So that felt really nice. And yeah, I think the smile, I’m [unintelligible] of a gestured person somehow. I’d much rather be, you know, if somebody listens to my episode and is like, you know, I loved it, then, you know, send me a large gift because I feel, you know, the fact that they could spend time and, write me a message mattered more, but this was like a great gesture, in fact, really nice. And it felt like I had a lot of great supporters around me, which felt really glad and none of it would be possible without them anyway. So I think yes that was the thing that really mattered to me.

[00:32:48] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes.

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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The post The Unconventional Way On How to Make a Successful Start Up w/ Jivraj Singh Sachar first appeared on Amardeep.

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Welcome to episode 50 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 50’s guest is Aishwarya Balaji. She’s the co-founder and CEO of A Fresh Sip – a growing alcohol-free beverage platform.

She’s a serial Silicone Valley entrepreneur and has started multiple businesses and advised countless others on how to grow and scale in a sustainable way. She’s given talks globally including at TEDx. I’m sure you’ll love hearing her story today.

• You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health:  https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Find more about Aishwarya: https://www.aishwaryabalaji.com/
• Follow her on Twitter: https://twitter.com/the_aish
• Follow her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/theaish/

Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• Being inauthentic and trusting yourself (1:37)
• You are the brand (5:16)
• When you build a business authentically, it takes a life of its own (7:07)
• Debunking a myth and having control over how things affect us (9:28)
• Your life purpose (13:32)
• “I give myself permission to not be perfect.” – Aish (18:29)
• Trying it in small doses (22:25)
• A chance to be grounded and trusting the process (26:09)
• 100% success rate, 0% failure rate (28:01)

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Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

—————————————————-———————————————

Transcript

[00:00:00] Aishwarya: So when you say fake it till you make it, you’re pretending. You don’t need to pretend because anything that you’re trying to do, you can do it. And I think as long as we embody that, we’re golden. You build a business authentically, it takes a life of its own. It really does. I get so much energy and so much joy from doing a lot of different things that maybe doesn’t look like a traditional Silicon Valley founder story, and that’s okay. I really want to debunk that myth that we have to build companies in a certain way to achieve success.

[00:00:36] Amardeep: Welcome to The Mindful and Driven podcast. Where it’s about how to not lose sight of what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Aishwarya Balaji, who is a co-founder and CEO of A Fresh Sip. It’s a growing alcohol-free beverage platform. She’s a serial Silicon Valley Entrepreneur and has started multiple businesses and advise countless others on how to grow and scale in a sustainable way. She’s given talks globally, including at TEDx. I’m sure you’re going to love hearing a story today. Hope you enjoy.

[00:01:10] Welcome to Mindful and Driven podcast, Aishwarya. Pleasure to have you here.

[00:01:13] Aishwarya: Thank you so much. I’m like really excited to chat with you today.

[00:01:16] Amardeep: Yeah, so you’ve been doing some amazing things over the last few years and you’re obviously building A Fresh Sip now, but along that way you must have been through so many different periods where people were trying to advise you and give you advice about what you should do with your life. What are some common advice you’ve heard that you disagree with?

[00:01:31] Aishwarya: Oh my gosh. So many different pieces of advice that I probably disagree with at this point. But the one thing that I would say is I really cringe when people say fake it till you make it, that phrase drives me crazy, because it’s, to me, it’s telling people to be inauthentic, right? When you were faking it, you were being almost like disingenuous. I get why people say, they’re saying like, don’t worry, don’t stress, but if you can actually embody, oh, I am great, or I am this, or I am that, then you’re not, you’re embodying yourself. So when you say fake it till you make it, you’re pretending you don’t need to pretend because anything that you’re trying to do, you can do it. And I think as long as we embody that we’re golden.

[00:02:16] Amardeep: I think a lot of people as well, they say it because of imposter syndrome, right? But the thing of imposter syndrome, you don’t fix it by pretending to be somebody you’re not because then you are literally being an imposter and instead it’s about getting the confidence and working out what is it that’s making you not fully comfortable with what you’re doing, and then trying to attack that in terms of actual actions so that you then have the confidence to do what you want to do. And if it’s that, you don’t feel like you can advise people because you don’t feel like you have the experience, or you don’t have this, or you don’t have that, then don’t try to advise people what you think that’s important. Advise people you think you can help instead.

[00:02:54] Aishwarya: Yeah, it’s a whole trust thing at the end of the day, it’s trusting yourself. And one of the most important things is can you build credibility with yourself, right? It’s about, and you can build credibility slowly. You can say, okay, I’m going to do this. Maybe I’ll take my vitamins today. Maybe I’ll take my vitamins and go to the gym tomorrow. And you’re slowly adding things to build that credibility with yourself. But when you trust yourself, you don’t have to pretend, you don’t have to be fake. Like if you wake me up in the middle of the night and you ask me a question, I should be telling you the same answer that I would say in the middle of the day, to me, that’s being authentic, and to me, that’s not me being fake. And so I get imposter syndrome can be really hard, like hard and harmful, but that is literally you operating from fear and fear is not you. And so it’s literally saying be you, don’t be fake because the fakeness is what’s causing the imposter syndrome and the fear and everything. It’s like, be authentic, be you, be true, and then that’s why like, and then you’ll make it,

[00:03:54] Amardeep: have you ever suffered from imposter syndrome yourself?

[00:03:57] Aishwarya: Always. Constantly. I think every time we up level and we conquer one battle, we’re facing it again. And I just, now I feel fortunate because I have a bunch of different tools in my toolbox that I can tap into when I am faced with that, which I think an earlier version of myself would have really, really wished that I had.

[00:04:18] Amardeep: Yeah. Because I think I find it myself and it’s like you said, how you deal with it is by being authentic. I don’t try to pretend to people. When I’m talking to people like you who’ve achieved so much and people I’ve talked to on other podcast episodes, I don’t try to pretend that I’ve done certain things that I haven’t. I’m quite honest about it. And we talk just for this podcast. I mentioned how my background is. I was surprised to get into what I’m doing now. And I think that makes me more relatable. It makes people want to be in touch with me more rather than me pretending or making up lies to try and impress them. And I think if you look at online business, if you look at anyone building a brand, that’s so much more important because people didn’t want this avatar of somebody who’s perfect. They want somebody who’s real. They want somebody they can relate to. And I know that within your own companies and the things you’ve done in the past, that’s been a big part of it, right? And you put yourself out there, you put yourself on camera and you build those relationships because of that.

[00:05:12] Aishwarya: Absolutely. I think when, like with A Fresh Sip, for example, which is in the sober, curious, alcohol free space, there is this huge, there was a whole huge need of people feeling seen and nobody talks or nobody before was talking about not drinking as anything outside of sobriety. But there’s a lot of reasons people might not drink alcohol, right? It might be like a late night, you might have an early morning, you might be pregnant, whatever the reason is. And so we wanted to be like, the best friends in that space, right? We want it to be the people that you could see yourself in. And as you were saying earlier, being authentic and sharing your journey and sharing what matters to you, that’s your unique story, and you’re tapping into your unique genius and that’s what’s connecting with other people.

[00:05:56] Amardeep: And I think there are so many young companies, people I’ve interviewed as well in the past, is that that’s how they get their first customers. By having people you believe in their mission too. And you get this really loyal fans and the really loyal customers, because they want to help you because they’re like you. They like the way you’re going about the product. And especially in those early days, when you’re still trying to boot up your brand and build up the credibility in terms of numbers, some of the other stuff that people might look into, what they’re investing in in many ways, and what they’re believing in is you as a founder.

[00:06:27] Aishwarya: Yeah, absolutely. I think you are the brand. And whether that’s you asking for investment money from investors, they’re not paying and they’re not investing in your idea. They’re investing in you as a person and your ability to adapt and to evolve because life and your business is going to constantly be seeing challenges, right? And your ability to be able to change with that is what they’re excited about. The same thing with a community, your community is excited about the way you’re approaching something. They see themselves in what you’re showing them, and that’s really exciting for them as well.

[00:07:03] Amardeep: What inspired you to start A Fresh Sip albeit curiosity?

[00:07:06] Aishwarya: It actually goes back to when I was running my last company. I actually ran a company in the blockchain space and I got really burnt out. It was the first startup I had ever built, and I was taking a lot of advice from other people. And during that process, I was very, I was getting really burnt out and I also got really sick because as you might know, when you’re emotionally and mentally not taking care of yourself, your physical body can also struggle quite a bit. And one of the things I had to do to heal myself was to cut out toxins and alcohol happened to be one of them. And so I cut out alcohol for a bit. But I’m a very social person. I love going out. I love celebrating. I love hosting events. And so learning how to navigate social situations was a whole process. Fast forward a couple of years, and since I have been in the startup space for like six, seven, about seven, eight years now, we noticed that there was a trend actually in Europe of non-alcoholic products and beverages starting to come to market. And you guys are a little ahead of us in The States when it comes to some of these consumer product trends and what we felt that this was going to be definitely coming here as well. And so we decided, Hey, I think this is something that’s not just going to be a trend, but it’s going to be here to stay. It’s like, kind of, that’d be like the next vegan vegetarian gluten-free kind of craze, and so we were kind of bullish on that, and we, being my co-founder Payal and I, and we decided that we were going to help be some structural support for the industry. And so we did that by building a community for people who were looking for alcohol free alternatives that were still sophisticated, that were still delicious and kind of normalizing not drinking. And that community currently just took a life of its own, and she started asking for a lot of recommendations. They wanted help with finding things that were very uniquely important for them. And so we ended up launching a platform where we now sell, I think over 250 non-alcoholic beverages nationwide. And it’s really exciting because it’s just, it’s all of these products that continuously come to market. Now we’re moving to the B2B side. You know, when you build a business authentically, it takes a life of its own. It really does. And I think that that’s all I can, that’s what I tell my clients. That’s what I tell anybody.

[00:09:23] Amardeep: Yeah. I really like to dig a bit more into the burnout phase you had there as well, that triggered A Fresh Sip in the first place. What happened there? So you said that you tried to cut toxins and things like that. How did you get to that state? And was it the first thing you did was try to cut out toxins? Or did you try other things, I imagine, in the meantime? And how quick were you about doing that? Because many people can stay in that burnout phase for way longer than is healthy.

[00:09:46] Aishwarya: So one thing I would want to say about me in particular is I’ve always been like a huge, self-growth, curious individual. I’m always down to try to figure out why something is happening and then I’ll want to fix like the root cause. So whether that’s my health or like my mindset, or some, like a project I’m working on. And so for me, I was getting really curious by that. So like, if my health was starting to suffer, like I wanted to know why that was happening. And it was like, it was hormonal imbalance. It was adrenal imbalance. It was like everything under the sun. But stress is a huge contributor of that. And so one thing I didn’t realize was I was drinking the Silicon Valley Kool-Aid of, I should be, you know, in my room, eating ramen, in a garage, eating ramen, building this business. And what I realized is I’m not that type of founder. I get so much energy by seeing my friends. I get so much energy and so much joy from doing a lot of different things that maybe doesn’t look like a traditional Silicon Valley founder story. And that’s okay. And, you know, even when it comes to like the capital that we raised and whatnot, like there are so many different ways to run businesses. And the other business that I now run is a consultancy and coaching business where I really want to debunk that myth, that we have to build companies in a certain way to achieve success. And I work very closely with people to do that.

[00:11:15] Amardeep: Are there any lessons that you teach your clients that are rooted in changes you made in your own life?

[00:11:20] Aishwarya: One of the things that I did after burning out was I did a vipassana and a vipassana is a 10 day silent retreat. And there are so many incredible nuggets that I learned from that, that I’ve included in my meditation practice, but I’ve also passed along to clients of mine. And one is this like incredible analogy that like, to me, struck gold. And so I’ll share that with you. And the analogy goes like this. If you take a stick and you go to water and you draw a line in water, that line disappears right away. You take a stick and you draw a line in the sand and that line stays for a little longer, but eventually it goes away. You take a stick and you draw a line in rock, and that line lasts a lot longer and it’s like pretty much there for awhile. And the analogy is kind of when somebody says something negative to you or something very critical and in that could be even yourself, because you say it once, or you hear it once, and it doesn’t really affect you, but when you internalize it and you say it again and again and again, that is where you’re holding yourself back. You’ve now accepted that as a part of your identity. Once it becomes like a line in rock. And so really releasing things that are not, that don’t feel good, much quicker is, was a huge, huge learning and something that I share with a lot of people, cause I think it’s very powerful. We don’t have control over anything in our surroundings, but we have control over how we let that affect us, and how much, how many times we say that to ourselves.

[00:12:51] Amardeep: Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:13:27] What were some of the stories you told yourself that were negative and how did you break that cycle?

[00:13:32] Aishwarya: That’s a really good question. For me, a big story, and I think there’s a story that a lot of people tell themselves, is that I am not enough and that I need to achieve certain success metrics to be considered enough. With the last business that I built, I, it was my identity. The business, the success of the business, was the success of me. And my identity was very intertwined with that business. Every outcome that I achieved there was giving me a short term validation that I was good enough, but then it would go away and then it was okay. Now what? So like I did a TEDx and it was great, but literally I remember, the day after the TEDx was over, I was like, okay, well now what am I going to do? And it was, and so, you know when you surround your like identity with your business or your business outcomes and you constantly need that external validation, that is not a healthy place to be, so that definitely added to my burnout in that entire journey versus now, if I’m being completely honest, If my business fails, for whatever reason, I would be okay because I have not attached my worth to the success and the outcomes of my business. I love my business. But when people say, are you going to be running A Fresh Sip five years from now? It’s like, I’m not sure. And it was like, are you going to, do you want to do this forever? People always ask, do you want to do this forever? Why is that a question? Because forever is a long time and I’m a different person today than I’m than I was yesterday. So obviously at some point in my life, I’m going to want to do something different, and I’m okay with that.

[00:15:07] Amardeep: I think one of the things related to that as well, is that a lot of people might think about this idea of a life purpose or your life’s work, but you don’t need to decide that now and your life’s work can change. Like it could be that A Fresh Sip is what drives you really strongly right now, but in 10 years time, you might have a different mission. So you don’t need to choose what you’re going to do now for the rest of your life. I think it is, I think you don’t have to do this in The States, but in the UK you have to pick a university subject when you’re still 18. So people decide to become doctors when they’re 18 years old, and then once they’ve decided that they’ve now got six years of university to study for that. And people my age, there are a lot of people who’ve been doing, practicing for several years now, and it doesn’t make them happy. And they’re just stuck now because they made that decision when they’re 18 years old and they feel that they have to stick to it today, even though it’s over a decade later. And I think the better we can get at, like you said, it’s in a way to do with the drawing the line of the stick is you don’t need to stick to what your beliefs were several years ago, you can change, and there’s no point trying to hold yourself to a previous standard where a few years ago, well, recently you might decide A Fresh Sip is the most important thing to you, but in year’s time, it could be something completely different. And that’s not you betraying yourself, that actually you being honest with who you are at that point in time.

[00:16:33] Aishwarya: Totally. And actually change is the only constant in life. You know, we talked about that briefly before we jumped on this podcast is, that is the only thing that is consistent. So if we are in, you know, we have a routine or we’re doing something well, right now, something in life is going to happen. And the only thing that we can do is embrace that whatever is coming our way, that we can handle with grace. And like, if we get comfortable being uncomfortable, life is just easier. And I think, I say this a lot and my parents make fun of me, I say, you know, trust the universe. And I just trust the universe. Like what? Like, and I say that because it takes a pressure off of me. And I think we, as individuals, as humans, we think we’re really special. And one of the best things that I’ve done for myself is realize how insignificant I am. And I know that sounds really funny, but when we realize that we are insignificant, we give ourselves permission to do whatever the hell we want. And that ends up being so much better than if we thought we were special.

[00:17:40] Amardeep: It’s the spotlight effect, right? Where we think that our story that is in our heads is what everybody else is seeing as well, whereas most people in our lives might think of us for maybe 10 seconds a day for that. If you see somebody and that they see you on Instagram, whatever like that, or in social media, they’re not consumed by you the entire day. They might just click on your photo and press like or whatever and go on with their day. They’re not still thinking about your photo or whatever you did, or your reel. And there’s a lot of people who put so much pressure on themselves when they’re out in public, because they think that people are going to remember that. And I can’t remember what I was wearing yesterday, let alone what somebody else was. Like where you are at the moment, obviously you’ve got your two different businesses that you run and you’re trying to have better balance and not have that burnout that they had before. How is your balance right now? Do you feel like you’re in a good place?

[00:18:33] Aishwarya: Yes. And I will say yes because I give myself permission to not be perfect. And so there are days where I get nothing done on both businesses and I don’t feel guilty for that. I think, you know, we tend to get so, we get in our own ways and we are like, our bodies will tell us when we need something and we can choose to ignore it, or we choose to accept it. So there are days where I feel so much energy. Like today, I feel so energized. I know I’m going to get so much done. And last week, there was a couple of days where I got like, I was like so tired. And so what I did was I just needed to like, relax. I read a book, you know, like I took a few hours and yeah, I feel like fortunate that I have the luxury to be able to kind of manage my schedule, but that was also really intentional. One of the questions I get a lot is why are you running two businesses? Don’t you want to just commit to one, and it’s not about me being commitment-phobic towards one or the other. It’s truly about both sides, giving me such different joys and allowing myself to show up completely. When I work one-on-one with people in the coaching and consulting side, I’m able to unlock pieces of their genius that they have been not able to necessarily see for years. And that gives me so much fuel that I’m able to take towards A Fresh Sip and saying, you know, what I’m showing here, what I am explaining here, and teaching here, I am, I’m executing on this side. You are seeing the success of my business as a direct correlation with what I’m also presenting. And so, you know, they say like, do one, teach one, what’s the other one? Do one, teach one, right? That’s the phrase. And like this way I’m able to teach and also do at the same time. And I think that’s a really, that’s a beautiful combination.

[00:20:25] Amardeep: Yeah. And I think what you said there about taking, some days we take slow and some days you’ve got the energy and you can get more done. I don’t have to keep a backlog of different things where they need to be done sometime, but they’re not particularly important. I’m going to be having a day where I can’t focus and get the high quality work done. I’ll just sit there and do the menial tasks sometimes, and I’m getting stuff done, but it’s quite therapeutic in a way. And so some of the stuff I do, for example, design work and like designing some of my cover art and things like that. It’s quite therapeutic. I quite enjoy it. Especially if I haven’t got much energy, it doesn’t really feel like work. And then on other days I’ve got tons of energy and I can really pump out content or I can coach people. I can do different things, and that’s okay. And listening to that two different side of things is really important too, of having that backup of like, okay, if it’s a bad day today, is there anything I can get done that won’t make me feel worse?

[00:21:21] Aishwarya: Yeah. And I think we all are such different people. Like I know how, I’ve taken a lot of time to understand how I operate best and I need a variety of different things that spark joy, otherwise I will just, that will burn me out. So as ironic as it is, me spending less time doing something, even if it’s by 10% or 20% will actually increase the output. And so that’s where having multiple things that I’m working on really does give me that like happy, happy, kind of medium. But that being said, I still can’t do, I can go back and forth all day. Like I need to chunk my time, so my head is there and I’m not getting this, like, you know, starting inertia that I need to like put towards something. But yeah, like I genuinely love what I’m doing and I genuinely love my life. And I could have never said that like four years ago, which is so wild.

[00:22:15] Amardeep: So before we started recording, you mentioned how, when people ask you what you’re excited about during the week, you sometimes mention something that’s work related, when they might’ve been asking something that was more personal. What other things that you do outside of work that also bring that joy to you where they’re not necessarily for income or for your business, but you try to keep them there anyway?

[00:22:34] Aishwarya: Yeah, so a couple things. So I’m kind of a part digital nomad. I like to change my environment in terms of where I live a couple of times, like probably at least once or twice a year. And I do this because I think, being around different people, different energy, and a different culture, is super important and meaningful for me. And it just, there’s nothing like that. It gives me so much joy. And so that is something that I do quite a bit. And then I will say, I love anything artistic expression, so I’m really big into dance. I love, I actually used to sing when I was little and I just restarted that like a couple of weeks ago. And so that’s super, super exciting. And even like coloring, painting, like artistic expression to me grounds me. And so that is very, very important. I actually moved to a new city, like back in the fall and I chose this, I moved to Austin, Texas, and I chose the city because it was a mix of nature and like tech and startup stuff. And so that was really exciting. And one beautiful thing about where I live right now is I can see sunrise and sunset from my unit. And the joy that I get from seeing sunrise and sunset every day, it literally makes me feel so connected with everything around me. And I know this sounds so sappy, but like, it’s so true. And I couldn’t have asked for anything better than that.

[00:23:57] Amardeep: The people listening who might want to do a digital nomad life themselves in the future, how do you go about that in terms of, so you picked Austin, you said because of the nature and the different environment you had around you, I imagine that it’s also quite intimidating to move away from your friends and your family, and especially when you’ve just built up a new group of people who you get along with, so then up sticks and put yourself somewhere else. What advice would you have for somebody who wants to try that lifestyle but hasn’t yet built up the courage to do so?

[00:24:24] Aishwarya: Try it in a smaller dose. So, one thing that I did was I lived in Bali for four months, a few years ago. And, I wasn’t planning on living there. That’s the funny part, but I had gone there for three weeks, two of those three weeks, I had gone with a friend. So when you’re going somewhere with a friend, you kind of do it like, I like, you kind of do a little bit more of the touristy thing and digital nomad a little bit, but you have somebody else there. And then she left, but I had already gotten comfortable with being in a new place when this person had left that I at least didn’t have to deal with understanding a new environment plus meeting people. So the comfort of me knowing where I was was enough to be able to just kind of start to interact with other folks. The thing is also with digital nomad, if you go to any places that are really known for digital nomading, there are so many people that are also new. There are so many groups, it’s actually really, really easy to meet people. And so it’s honestly, it’s like our own blocks that we get in our way. Like, just start with a few weeks, see how you like it. And then kind of go from there. One thing that I started to trust myself on, is that I can make friends wherever I go. And so I actually never even questioned, oh, should I move here? Or should I move there? Because I know more people here versus I know less people there. I just said, where will I feel grounded? Where can I show up as the best version of myself? If that feels like that location, if I’m showing up as the best version of myself, I’m sure I can attract people into my community. And that’s kind of how it’s worked out.

[00:25:53] Amardeep: Yeah. And is this something you want to continue in the future? Like ongoing where you keep moving around or have you got other ideas of where this is something you’re doing for the moment and then later on you want to do something else and we talked about it’s how it’s really hard to know what will make you happy in the future, but is there any kind of lifestyle you’re working towards that you think that will be when I’ve made or that will be a successful lifestyle?

[00:26:16] Aishwarya: We just talked about how, like I’m not planning for my entire future of my life, right? I’m just kidding. I actually think that, for me, I do want more of a base, and so having a little bit more of a, like a permanent base for the most part is something that I am starting to do more, but I think going somewhere for two to three months of the year, like living in a different country or live in a different city, at least until I have a family, I think would be something that I would definitely heavily entertain. And so I’m like maybe eight, nine months based one place, two, three, four months based somewhere else. And, you know, go on short trips in between, and I think that’s something that will like give me that groundedness, that routine that I sometimes do crave, but also give me the opportunity to live in other places, connect with my digital nomad community, now that I’ve built over the last several years as well.

[00:27:08] Amardeep: As you talked towards that future, you said, if you’re not doing A Fresh Sip in a few years time, that will be okay with you, if the business fails. Have you got any ideas or like dreams in a way where you wonder, that’s something you want to try in the future, which you haven’t done yet?

[00:27:21] Aishwarya: I think there are a couple things that I would love to do at some point. Like, I really want to write a book at some point. It doesn’t feel like it’s time yet. I know someday it’ll be time. It’s not time yet. Small things like that. But for the most part, I’m just, I’m trusting the process. Like I’m letting things happen, and I, when I get excited about something like I’ll know that there’s something about this that’s exciting enough that I want to pursue it.

[00:27:45] Amardeep: So going with the flow is what works for you. What do you think that other people listening today could hear from you, and you could give them a positive mindset shift that they could make that would help them?

[00:27:55] Aishwarya: Ooh. Okay. I will tell you the single quote, and I’ve said this so many times, so if anybody listening has heard me talk, they probably have heard this quote. You have overcome 100% of the obstacles in your life, thus far. And this one single quote, literally changed my life because that means it’s a 100% success rate, 0% failure rate. There is no other aspect of your life where it is 100% success rate, 0% failure rate. Every single thing that you were worried about, you have overcome. So you will know that whatever you’re worried about now, you’re also going to overcome. That was literally game changer for me.

[00:28:37] Amardeep: So it’s been a pleasure talking to you today. Where can the people listening hear more about you and what you’re up to?

[00:28:42] Aishwarya: Thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun. If people want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram @theaish. Also, if you go to theaish.com, you can learn about my coaching and consulting services. If you want to hear more about A Fresh Sip, you can go to Take A Fresh Sip on any social media channel or go to afreshsip.com

[00:29:01] Amardeep: And the final thing I ask all my guests is, what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently?

[00:29:05] Aishwarya: So the thing that’s been giving me so much joy, it’s so random, but it is the walk back from my gym, and it is crossing this beautiful bridge where there’s water and I can see buildings and city line at the same time. And the combination of being able to see the city and water like that to me, is the best walk. And so that has given me such small joy and I usually stop by and get a matcha on the way, which is also great.

[00:29:37] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes.

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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Welcome to episode 49 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 49’s guest is Zoe van Liere also known as a professional wild child. She’s the founder of the Shadow Works School which sounds more nefarious than it actually is. It’s all about bringing the ideas at the back of your mind or that are in your subconscious and bringing them in your conscious mind so you can deal with them and understand yourself truly and move on with your life. It’s work that she loves doing and you have to understand this when you hear her speak.

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels. 

You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co

Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com

United for Global Mental Health: https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support

 Find more about Zoe: https://www.professionalwildchild.com/

Follow her on Twitter: https://twitter.com/profwildchild

Follow her on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/professionalwildchild

 Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• Follow your heart or your intuition? (1:42)
• Get to know yourself better (5:28)
• Living your authentic self (8:28)
• A sense of community and traveling (11:57)
• The challenges of balance (17:16)
• To truly be yourself at home and finding your tribe (21:10)
• Treasures in your emotions and adding value to people’s lives (23:34)

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Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Zoe: You just notice this mindset shift of people like, oh wait, that’s, that’s how it works. So the mindset shift at the end of the day, when you do shadow work is all about when you’re triggered, when you’re jealous, when you go through an emotion. We’re so good when we are so buying for ourselves, at least to really project, a lot of shit from ourselves towards the outer world, but there are so many treasures in those emotions.

[00:00:35] Amardeep: Welcome to the Mindful and Driven Podcast, where we help you to not lose sight of what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Zoe van Liere also known as a professional wild child. She’s the founder of the Shadow Works School which sounds more nefarious than it actually is. It’s all about bringing the ideas at the back of your mind or that are in your subconscious and bringing them in your conscious mind so you can deal with them and understand yourself truly and move on with your life. It’s work that she loves doing and you have to understand this when you hear her speak. I hope you enjoyed listening,

[00:01:11] Welcome Zoe to Mindful and Driven. It’s a pleasure to have you here. 

[00:01:14] Zoe: Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:01:15] Amardeep: How we actually met is a bit funny. So we both attended the same webinar by our friends Hassan and Ash. So were unfair advantage. And we’re both talking in their chat and then I noticed your Instagram after then. Saw how much amazing work you’ve done and how different a path is to what many people choose to take. And Going down this path, was there anywhere along the line where you’ve got advice that you really disagreed with, and you think that could’ve lead you away from what makes you happy today? 

[00:01:42] Zoe: Well actually, I think a common advice that I personally gave a lot back in the day is something that I currently disagree with. So back when I started, it was 2011, 2012, and I started off with setting up a Dutch platform that was all about living free, adventurous, more conscious life, and I was hosting events and it was basically like a blogger collective, and that grew immensely back in the day. And that was really that was a project that really came from my heart. So I also used to write a lot about what my heart was telling me and following my dreams. And of course that is something that is also said a lot and almost romanticized in a way, follow your heart, up to the point where my heart also led me into a toxic relationship because my heart was telling me that this was the guy, my guy, and I really needed to be with him. Although actually in the total beginning already with him, my intuition told me something completely different and it was that time that I needed, I was in this toxic relationship for two years in the end, also experienced emotional and psychological abuse in the household that we shared, and when we broke up, I went through a whole awakening within myself and my personality type and how basically we, as human beings are wired, how we are set up, how, to how many illusions we’re basically going all the freaking time in life. And that was also the point where I realized like, okay, but this is not a thing about following your heart. It’s actually, it should be follow your intuition because actually we are the only animals in the animal kingdom that are so horrible in listening to our intuition. If you see a reindeer and it is frightened, it runs away immediately. And we somehow tend to give people a chance, although our intuition is telling us like, runaway. So I think follow your heart should actually be following your intuition. 

[00:03:52] Amardeep: Yeah. I think what’s interesting about that as well is when people about their authentic self. Say, you need to follow your authentic self, sometimes actually referring to the person they were many years ago. And I think that your authentic self changes over time. So if you said like, what you thought before you had that relationship versus afterwards was different because you learned more, you grew and you learn from, like a terrible experience you had. And obviously, I’m really happy that you came out on the other side and you feel stronger and happier now. And I think it’s really interesting because when you were in that relationship, if you thought I need to stick to my authentic self, that might’ve been the person who was giving in to this abuse in some way, and letting yourself get blamed, which is obviously completely wrong and you don’t want to do that. So I think it’s really important to think about it in that terms as well of what’s right for me, and is this making me happy rather than, if you say you define yourself as somebody who’s in that relationship, I’m this person’s partner, that can be really bad for you in the long term. 

[00:04:51] Zoe: Yeah. I think if we are truly open for all the lessons that life is teaching us and we do the inner work and we do the shadow work, it actually brings us closer and closer to our authentic self, if we are really open for it. So I do honestly see that my authentic self was already sort of covered under my persona and my mask. I just really wasn’t able to see it clearly. And now I can actually bring my authentic self more to the surface. 

[00:05:21] Amardeep: You mentioned shadow work there as well. So some people listening today won’t really know what that is, could you explain a bit about that?

[00:05:28] Zoe: Yeah, I’m the big shadow work ambassador by now, I believe. I’m a big shadow work fan. So shadow work basically comes from psychology. Carl Young has brought it to the west. It’s a very down to earth practice to get to know yourself better and actually truly feel more free within yourself. The shadow basically stands for the unconscious. What a lot of people don’t know is that we run through life pretty much unconsciously. 95% of life, and our days we go through unconsciously and with doing shadow work, we basically make the unconscious conscious. So with that being said, you can basically also say that the shadow is basically a part of our selves that we do not see. It’s not even a thing of not being willing to see. It’s just really something that we repress and it’s out of our awareness and it is hidden in our emotions, in our triggers, in our projections, in our patterns, but also in our form of humor, for example. And I think it’s wildly fascinating because as soon as you shift your being, basically, as soon as you start shadow work, you instantly get a different type of mindset in life, also in how we go through our days, but also when you see other people, I don’t know, acting out or saying certain things, and it’s just like, ah, okay, wait. But everything is basically saying something about ourselves.

[00:06:52] Amardeep: What made you be interested in this topic in the first place? Were you going through a tough time and you use shadow work to help you get out of that? Or where did this come from? 

[00:07:00] Zoe: It sort of naturally came to me. I don’t remember or recall how exactly, but as I just mentioned, when I went through my breakup of this toxic relationship, I went through, like an actual dark night of the soul awakening kind of phase. It almost feels like a trend nowadays to say that, but it definitely felt that way. That by now is two years ago. And somehow I bumped into shadow work. So I started deepening my knowledge and what triggered me back then the most was actually that I found out that this was a toxic relationship and that I can really identify with the concept of being an empath and that I took over his emotions and his energies as if they were mine. So I went through this whole phase of whoa, I never saw that about myself before. That I was also really open to say, Okay, but then there must be so much more that I don’t know about myself. And I want to find out what that is. And that is the essence of shadow work. So I started deepening my knowledge about it and really started to investigate how I can discover more from myself about myself without having to go through another toxic relationship, because I think that toxic relationship was basically just a catalyst of my biggest shadow. Myself. 

[00:08:18] Amardeep: You mentioned you started a Dutch platform many years ago. What made you start that in the first place and how long was it before it became your full-time role? 

[00:08:27] Zoe: I was studying at the university of Amsterdam and I was also working there and that made me feel so depressed already. The whole nine to five kind of work lifestyle kind of thing was really not for me. I saw a lot of people in the midst of their steady jobs, but they were just really sitting out the day, you know. They weren’t living life. And it really, for me, felt like they, well, they weren’t living their authentic selves, you know. I think everybody has something to offer with so many of us are stuck in trying to survive, I think mostly, and I wanted to do something creative and I knew a lot of people around me and I wanted to bring them, or I knew a lot of people that wanted to make a positive impact on the world and I wanted to bring them together. So I started to organize an event and I did that under the name Modern Hippies, Modern Day Hippies, and that was back in 2011. And somehow it was really very fitting in that time, because it was sort of just before fair fashion became a thing. Just before this whole plant based vegan trend became super popular. So I think that collective consciousness was really rising in that time, and my Dutch platform was sort of just like was really picking up on the trend of that and was bringing these people together that wanted to make a positive impact and simply do better. And therefore it also became really popular in those years, and especially the events were massive in 2013, 14, although, I wasn’t able to identify with being an entrepreneur. I saw myself as sort of accidentally created something that, yeah. A lot of people liked. 

[00:10:16] Amardeep: When did you go full time into this world? 

[00:10:18] Zoe: Well, actually already back then, I can’t say that I was financially abundant back then. I really had no clue how to make money. I think, which is also nice in a way to now mention is that when you talk about the authentic self and the false self in a way is that, although I wanted to do that, my empath nature basically really wants to make the world like in a desperate way, almost a better place. And I take a lot of heavy things from the world personally, as if I need to change everything, which of course you can’t. And we have to do this as a collective and we need to make tiny steps and we need to keep it real, mostly. And I was also organizing these events, although my false, personality basically knows that I, of all people shouldn’t organize events needing to basically facilitate a room of thousands of people, although I’m taking over all their emotions and energies and I’m basically just worn out the week after. Yeah. So I think I was always very resistant towards this whole nine to five, kind of life. And then I also had this thing going that was actually quite popular. So I just try to make it a full-time job for myself. And then I just did like a whole mixture of content creation events and also freelancing. And it gave me a level of, I mean, the platform stood for living a free, adventurous, and conscious lifestyle. And I also, myself was able to lead one. 

[00:11:45] Amardeep: I think what’s interesting too, is that, you started writing in Dutch originally, right? And now you’re doing things in English. And even before we started recording, you kind of mentioned that sometimes you can struggle to mix between the languages. Was this something that scared you early on, where you started doing more content in English? Were you worried about that at all? Because I know there was some people listening today where English isn’t their first language. But they know that they can reach a wider audience with it. 

[00:12:10] Zoe: Yeah. It was always my struggle, and I have to say that it still is because when I started off with my Dutch platform, I always felt like a world citizen. I never truly felt Dutch. You know, there’s a lot of Dutch people that truly feel Dutch, but I just feel like I also love to live abroad. I have lived abroad. I worked from abroad and then obviously I also spoke more English and I also had a lot of friends abroad. So for me it just makes sense that, especially with something as modern day hippies, that you make it more international. But of course, the last two years, I’ve also pretty been, pretty much nonstop, been in the Netherlands. So now I feel very Dutch and now I also sometimes still, also on my Instagram, I go back and forth here and there, depending on the subject. Maybe if sometimes, something is in Dutch, but at the end of the day, you just really need to make content with what feels good to you. And I definitely have to say that my YouTube channel mostly, and I do that in English, just gave me so much fulfillment because I really had the feeling that I attracted like-minded women, mostly who yeah, go through life pretty independently and love to travel and love life, but also love to explore more about themselves. So yeah, gave me truly the feeling of community.

[00:13:37] Amardeep: Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:14:09] And you mentioned there about traveling and work while you were traveling. How did you find that experience? Because it’s something that I’ve been thinking about myself, do I want to do the digital nomad side of things or not? Because I also like having a base in London and I have my friends and family here too. And I’ve got so much that I enjoy about the city too. How have you found that process when you lived abroad and came back? And what was that experience like for you? 

[00:14:32] Zoe: I think it’s heavily romanticized also. For me, at least, I definitely struggled sometimes with working abroad especially in 2016, when I tried it from Cape town, which is my big love. I love to come there, but back then the internet was just horrible and I was just starting out with my YouTube channel. So it took me a day sometimes to just upload a video. So of course then, you really notice how privileged you are first and foremost, as you’re living in the Netherlands and how quick things go here, especially around internet and the connection and everything around it. So it definitely hasn’t always been easy, but the other side of it, of course, is just the freedom that it takes, or that it gives that you’re able to do that. It’s beautiful. So here and there for a few weeks, I would definitely do it again. Are you thinking about, where are you thinking about going? 

[00:15:30] Amardeep: Oh, I could go to Amsterdam. You never know? 

[00:15:32] Zoe: You have good wifi here most of the times. 

[00:15:37] Amardeep: I think a lot of the people I work with, either east coast or west coast thru the US, so I went to meet a lot of them cause I’ve had so many taps there and zoom calls, it would really nice to meet them in person, but at the same time I could go anywhere. So I’ve done quite a lot of travel pre pandemic when I started my consulting job. So there’s a lot of places I’ve been to that I’ve liked. And I think one of my biggest problems is I have too much choice. If I had to decide to work abroad for a bit, where would I go? Because I like so many places. So it’s easy to just not think about it than to try to analyze listed things. Like where would I go? And like I said, one of the big problems too is if I’m doing a lot of video work, you need to have a solid base. You need to have good wifi. And you’re going to be carrying around equipment all the time, if you’re moving around the country and yeah, like you want to have that professional sheen to it as well. And one of the things that’s quite stressful, which some people may not realize with traveling is that if you’re going for a country, or a backpack, or taking different forms of transport, that takes its toll on you as well, you need to recover from that. You need to have the rest in there, too. 

[00:16:38] Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, that’s very true. I also really needed like almost an extra suitcase for all the equipment that you need to take with you. And it’s a, it’s very ungrounding to work like that. So yeah, it has its pros and cons. 

[00:16:54] Amardeep: With life in the Netherlands at the moment, is there any way you’re struggling with your balance or have you got a nice routine down? 

[00:17:00] Zoe: I’m currently definitely just on a more practical level, struggling with balance just finding out what I’m going to do again. I sometimes just have these faces where I just really have to reset. I’m also trying to, to surrender to the moment of not truly knowing I have so many things that I would like to do in life still, but I really need to prioritize what that is, but I also highly believe that answers like those come naturally. If you just allow pauses like this to happen. And so definitely right now, I’m not in a very balanced state. And at the same time, I think for me always in life, what I now can see, at least as being an empath, you always struggle with truly loving people. But also really needing to be alone. So for me, it will always be whenever I’m in a relationship, I always struggle with, I want to be in a relationship, but I also need a lot of alone time. And the same goes with just work. Just balancing everything out. I just need so much time to recover just by living. I think life on itself can already be quite exhausting sometimes. Yeah. 

[00:18:15] Amardeep: One thing you’ve got too is that when people send you an email, cause obviously I did this myself, you’ve got the auto response, which tell people what they can do. That saves you a lot of time. Right? Because I get a lot of people who might send me emails and ask me different questions where I kind of need to reply but it’d be better, like what you’ve got. To just have the auto filter, right. You want to do this? Go here. You want to do that? Go there. Has that helped you a lot. And is there other techniques as well that you’ve used in the past?

[00:18:42] Zoe: Yeah, I think my auto reply is just really a prime example of truly setting boundaries, especially in this social media age, where everybody can send you messages all the freaking time. I’m completely overwhelmed by it. And somehow, especially when you make content, of course, online people also just really think that you can make that time because you’re already making the time to make a video or podcast or whatever. So you can also reply, but that just sums up constantly. So just like a strict auto reply is definitely recommended for everybody. Yeah. And I think other than that also online that I don’t feel as guilty anymore if I don’t reply in general, I think WhatsApp can also really create that feeling, especially from friends and family, you know, like hello. And I just think it’s, we’re living in such an insane world that we should also, that we should always stand on. Standby. It doesn’t make any sense to me. So to normalize for myself that I answer slowly, no matter if it’s towards my friends and family or online, it’s okay.

[00:19:51] Amardeep: What you mentioned before about you following intuition. Does that mean that you don’t tend to make longer term plans? Or do you have longer term goals that stay for the next couple of years? Or do you just let yourself go with the flow? 

[00:20:02] Zoe: I do think that I don’t make a lot of long-term plans anymore. I think that I used to make long-term plans, but more in my twenties, but I can also see that certain long-term plans were more ego-driven and not necessarily coming out of my authentic self. By now, I can definitely like it to work towards goals and yeah, still work towards my dreams, but then yeah, definitely keep checking in with truly my gut feeling, if this is right. And that is a constant challenge. If you’re also talking about balance in life, I think we, actually everyday, should do like an intuition check-in. 

[00:20:46] Amardeep: You said you’re working towards your dreams. What are your dreams? 

[00:20:48] Zoe: My dreams right now, at least on the one hand are very down to earth in the sense of, I just really want to have a steady, loving, warm home base. I have two cats by now. I really consider them being my family also. So, and I think, especially if you have gone through a phase where living in a home that feels unsafe, we really cannot take for granted that you can just truly be yourself at home and live in a household where everybody is accepting you and everything is just yeah, you can truly be yourself. So it’s my dream to just truly be myself always at home. And working wise, I would love to publish more books. I still have a lot of old content that I also just want to make a book about, I think, from, and continue with making videos. And what has currently just really given me so much fulfillment is creating these communities that are more out of the social media realm. So my shadow works school now, for example, it’s just really an example for me that throughout social media, I attracted these like-minded women. They’re all into this similar type of work. And then away from Instagram and away from YouTube and all the followers and likes and everything that is actually not so important, we actually truly come together and form a community and we do the work together and that has been so beautiful. I think community is just, it’s just it. 

[00:22:22] Amardeep: How do you, with that community, how does that work? Like, so if say somebody listened today wants to be part of the kind of similar community or good community like that themselves. What would that look like? 

[00:22:32] Zoe: I’m also currently still figuring it out because this for me is also new. For me, the shadow work school is really a program that people follow for six weeks. And then we have life sessions and we really come together and we can be vulnerable together. So, that is a community on itself, but I also, of course there are also communities these days, that you can really become a member of, and you’re a part of the community the entire year. Yeah. Could also be the case. I think it’s very important to at least find your tribe, especially when you’re into these type of topics. 

[00:23:04] Amardeep: [unintelligible] people you’re meeting in real life because obviously, it’s a lot of your work is online, but do you enjoy meeting people in real life and having the community there too? 

[00:23:14] Zoe: I do, but I do have to say that for me, as an introverted empath, highly sensitive person, that online is just heavenly.

[00:23:23] Amardeep: You obviously worked with so many people and you’ve helped so many people over the years. What’s one mindset shift, you think somebody listening today could make that could make a positive difference to the way they view their lives? 

[00:23:32] Zoe: Yeah. So I, like I just mentioned. The very first lesson that I do with the shadow work school contains like a questionnaire. And with question four, you just notice this mindset shift of people like, oh wait, that’s how it works. So the mindset shift, at the end of the day, when you do shadow work, it’s all about when you’re triggered, when you’re jealous, when you go through an emotion, we’re so good when we are so blind for ourselves, at least to really project, a lot of shit from ourselves towards the outer world, but there are so many treasures in those emotions. If you allow yourself to explore them truly. Yeah. So shadow work truly is golden, I think. And that creates a mindset shift big time. Absolutely. And I’m definitely not a sales type of person. That’s the funny thing. Over the 10 years that I worked for myself, I have never been able to set up a program and really sell it. But this is type of work that I just, I genuinely believe in, believe in it. And it makes yourself and the world a whole lot better. Have you ever done it? 

[00:24:44] Amardeep: Shadow work? 

[00:24:45] Zoe: Yeah. 

[00:24:46] Amardeep: No, not yet. No. This has got to be on the list. When I come to work in Amsterdam, we can do it then. We can do it online when I come to Amsterdam cause you don’t want to meet in person. 

[00:24:59] Zoe: No, we can do an offline as well.

[00:25:02] Amardeep: Okay. 

[00:25:03] Zoe: One-on-one is okay. 

[00:25:04] Amardeep: What I was going to say is somebody into the [unintelligible] what you said is that marketing people think is very sleazy, but it’s really about if you think someone can add value to somebody’s life and you’re trying to share that message, then that’s not salesy, that’s you trying to help people. And that’s a real aim of what you’re doing with shadow work and the shadow work school. Is it your hope that people with you think can benefit from what you’re doing and benefit from the philosophies that you’ve learned and apply to yourself? 

[00:25:33] Zoe: Absolutely. It’s the most liberating thing that you can do. So it’s also therefore, genuinely not a sales promo because it’s a, you do, I think, needs to be ready to do this work because it is, especially in the beginning, it can be uncomfortable. It can also be very confronting. You just really bump into things that you have been repressing your entire life, basically. You have to be open to, to open that Pandora box. And once it’s open, you just, you can’t go back. 

[00:26:03] Amardeep: As we wrap up now, if people listen today, they want to find out more about shadow work, find out more about what you do, where would you send them? Where can they find out more? 

[00:26:10] Zoe: I think even if you Google shadow work school, then you also bump into my website. Generally people can find me under professional wild-child. So I have a YouTube channel, Instagram, and also my website is also professionalwildchild.com.

[00:26:23] Amardeep: Perfect. And the final question I ask all of my guests is, what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently? 

[00:26:29] Zoe: I’m currently also hosting a little community and we’re doing the January dance challenge in which we have to do a little dance every day. I really believe in dancing. You don’t have to do that for your profession, but it is so good to get into your body and out of your mind. So I also say one dance a day keeps the doctor away. And I also recently heard in another podcast that you also like to dance. 

[00:26:55] Amardeep: I dabble a little bit. 

[00:26:58] Zoe: Very good. Do you also do a dance a day? 

[00:27:02] Amardeep: Ooh. I don’t know. Sometimes one thing I do and I guess I’m missing this on the podcast, now. As it’ll break, I’ll just play music and just dance around the flat. And it just gets me out of my head, gets me stopping thinking about what I’m thinking about, and this refreshes me a bit. It gives me a bit of energy and then I can go back to whatever I was doing. 

[00:27:20] Zoe: Exactly. That. It’s the little things.

[00:27:28] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes. 

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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Welcome to episode 48 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 48’s guest is Toni Koraza. He is the founder of MadX.Digital. He’s had quite a crazy career. He started off working in embassies then he taught English for National Geographic in China but had to end that early when COVID struck. When he returned to Europe, he was not sure what to do with his life. He started writing and found out he loved that, merged it with his passion for business to create his marketing agency.

Since this recording, Tony has become a good friend of mine.

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels.

You can find all my work and socials here:

• http://amardeepsparmar.com
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health: https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Find more about Toni:  https://www.madx.digital/
• Follow him on Medium: https://tonikoraza.com/
• Follow him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toni-koraza/

Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• Amazing and relatable people (2:26)
• It’s not one size fits all. (4:04)
• The weird guy (7:14)
• Fearful and capable (12:50)
• Going completely clean (16:44)
• Engaging more than stressful (19:41)
• The idea of the lifestyle (23:03)
• Managing your energy more than your time (27:18)
• Managing your time (31:52)
• Freeing your mental bandwidth (36:11)

————————————————————————————————-

Intro Music:

“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick

Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0

Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

————————————————————————————————

Transcript

[00:00:00] Toni: Honestly, I’m appreciative of your enemy and then wishing them all the best. Even though it sounds counterintuitive, it just frees up so much of your mental bandwidth. It’s just like, it is a power move in your own head. It’s like, you are not controlled by anything. You’re not controlled by rage. You’re not controlled by this darker, you know, devices of your own existence. If you just wish them, like honesty to be happy and to sort their own life.

[00:00:32] Amardeep: Welcome to the Mindful and Driven Podcast, where we help you to not lose sight of what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Toni Koraza. He is the founder of MadX.Digital. He’s had quite a crazy career. He started off working in embassies then he taught English for National Geographic in China but had to end that early when COVID struck. When he returned to Europe, he was not sure what to do with his life. He started writing and found out he loved that, merged it with his passion for business to create his marketing agency. Since this recording, Tony has become a good friend of mine and I hope you enjoy listening.

[00:01:08] Welcome to mind for driven, Toni. So, a pleasure to have you here.. You actually live about 10 minutes away from me, but today you’re joining us from somewhere else across the world. Where are you?

[00:01:17] Toni: Hi, Amardeep. I am in Mexico, Playa del Carmen, which is the Caribbean side of Mexico, and it’s so funny because I do live 10 minutes from you, but I barely ever see you. And now like from Mexico, we’re like all over each other. So putting that distance kind of works.

[00:01:34] Amardeep: Makes the heart grow fonder.

[00:01:35] Toni: It does. Yeah. Again, super happy to be here at Mindful and Driven. I’ve seen that you’ve come a long way in such a short time span. Like I was listening to some of the episodes last night and I was like, just mind blown by the guests and everybody, I was like, Ooh, give me some imposter syndrome right here. There’s like, because everybody else was so good and like saw some great stories. How do you feel about it? Do you, or get like students who gain, like, you know, a big personality and you’re like, oh, am I even talking to this person.

[00:02:05] Amardeep: I think there’s a mix. Some people, what I’ve realized is no matter who you talk to, they’re all just people at the end of the day, and a lot of the people who’ve got some of the most amazing stories, they also have very relatable stories too. And it doesn’t matter how much, if you’re a billionaire or if you’ve saved a million people’s lives, you still struggle with the same problems we all have. And even those people struggle with their balance. They overwork, or they put too much pressure on themselves sometimes. So I think that’s been quite refreshing is that everybody’s human at the end of the day. So it doesn’t matter how big you are, how famous you are, how many followers you have. We’re all human and we all have the same human issues.

[00:02:44] Toni: I guess, yeah. At the end of the day, we’re all human and we can do human things. Yeah, it’s nice to feel related or relatable with somebody that’s up there. Like one of your guests saving women around the world. It’s like running away from war zones. And that kind of struck a chord with me because, you know, I was born in a war zone as a kid, and I don’t remember much of, much of it, but it does leave, you know, some baggage with you, especially you’re trying to go outside and it’s like, no! Bad, man is shooting. Just stay in. And as a kid, I was like, okay, cool. Guns and army. I’m going to be in the military. I’m not going to be in the military. But, yeah. And then like listening to her podcast and then listening to [unintelligible] after, like it was, it was refreshing. It was nice.

[00:03:28] Amardeep: I guess that’s really interesting because if you’re growing up in a war zone and now you live in like central London and it’s a very different, obviously, atmosphere. You’ve probably seen different people give advice that don’t fit both worlds obviously. Have you ever seen that before, where someone’s giving you advice that you think isn’t quite working for you or wouldn’t work for lots of people.

[00:03:51] Toni: A hundred percent. I feel like most advice is like, there is so like situation specific. It also like depends on where you are in your headspace or where you are in your life. I don’t know. I don’t think any advice is like one size fits all. Like it’s just not. Something that doesn’t work for somebody else can work wonders for you and coming through England, especially after living in China as well, which is another intense period of my life. It was just like all this extreme world, like views just colliding. And it was very humbling for me to just, you know, like settle out in London. So I was growing older, or I was just getting more and more grateful for, for life and being alive and having nice and wonderful friends. And so I don’t know why, but like, I’m getting less fussed about anything now just because like, I feel like I’ve been blessed through actually come to London in the end. And I did not actually enjoy this as much because previously I would come as a tourist and there’s so many tourist traps. It is one of the biggest tourist destinations on the planet. So like, if you are green and young, it will rip you apart and now living in central London or we’re like east, Northeast bit, I’m loving it. Like I’ve met so many wonderful people, business partners. Started two businesses in London. I love the climate. I love the people and I don’t mean climate in terms of weather, weather is another story, but I love just like, you know, the mental climate and the people you can meet. It’s such a hotspot and like just this melting pot of talent and intriguing stories. So it was nice to hear that you actually live around the corner, technically speaking. Yeah. You know, I, before even I moved to London, I was in Oxford, and I remember in one of your stories, you did mention a part of my work, and about my articles. I was like, oh wow, this is interesting. And then like, actually to meet you later on and to meet other people from Medium. That was, that was big. I don’t know why. I just felt like I’m in the right place.

[00:05:56] Amardeep: It’s one of those crazy things. I think for me, a lot of my growth initially was during the pandemic and a lot of people were reaching out online, there’s lots of these conversations. That was cool. Whatever. But now that well, at times, the streets have opened up, we’ve been able to just go out and see each other. It just makes such a difference because I think when you’re able to talk to somebody face to face, you get a better sense of them. And I’ve had amazing conversations with people online and had the better [unintelligible], the luck to be able to talk to them and to learn their stories. But in my case, I always think there’s something different about being able to see people in person and you just get that deeper sense of who they are rather than the Zoom facade in a way. I think people relax a bit more in person. You talked about China there briefly. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Because there’s a story behind that you’ve told me in a pub before and I think it’s quite a good for the readers to learn.

[00:06:52] Toni: It is a crazy one at that as well, because after uni, I got a job offer with a consulting agency in China, which I didn’t know at the time, like consulting in China is a bit different than consulting in Europe and the Western world, so I got there and they kind of just act as a hiring agent. So they just like move you further along the line, and I was quite lucky in that regard because I landed a job in National Geographic. It was like a Chinese instance of it. And for a like nine months, I was okay. I was just sitting around the office. I mean with just the normal office job, water cooler conversations, trying to learn the Chinese and then the pandemic hit and coming from the west, you have this sense of suspicion against media in general. So when they do report a story, you always always feel this sensationalized, it’s overblown, the reality is probably not as bad, whereas in the east, especially China, the media reports something, it’s going to be underplayed. So when COVID hit, I had that feeling of like, no, this is not a big deal. And I just went on a holiday because it was Chinese new year. It was the end of June, sorry, end of January, January 20th. So around this time, actually, And I went to Cambodia, had a nice trip. And like, you just hear like Corona virus, Corona virus, some like nasty videos with Circle online and WeChat and Chinese internet because it’s a completely different place. And then as soon as I got into the plane, I was like, oh my god. And then we landed back in Xi’an where I lived, and as soon as. Stepped out of the plane, you were welcomed by a medical quarantine. Everybody has hazmat suits, was a proper science fiction movie, and that kind of talk to like relay this in a story or words itself. It was just like this visceral feeling of unsafety where you’re just like, we got into a cab, in a taxi, and then we were going home and then we had these street barricades. On every barricade, they would stop to get you out of the car, and then nobody speaks English. And my Chinese is awful, so like, nobody really understands why are you even there. So like a lot of times they just don’t know what to do with you. And they’re like, okay, just move along, move along. But like, there’s 20 minutes. If you, like, you don’t know if you’re going to disappear in the next 10 minutes and nobody will ever hear about you anymore. And then I go back to my flat and then again, you know, the barricades and people in hazmats, armed guards in front of your door. And they were like, Okay, just stay put. Don’t leave the house. And I was like, how do I buy food? They’re like, okay, we’ll let you leave four times in the next month and that’s all you get. And then you have to report every day that you’re in the house. And then you have drones flying around, if you do actually leave. And it’s also guarded because a lot of people live in these gated communities. It’s quite normal. And then like in front of the gates, they would just put hazmat suits, with guns, which is like, guns are scary. Hazmat suits are scary, combined. It’s terrifying. And after like four weeks of just not knowing what’s going on, you just hear some photos, you would just see some photos of like, I don’t know. Some, I don’t know. Dead bodies piling up or something like that. And then I don’t know, I was just trying to get, get away because it was hard. And I made my way after a month, it was early March, I made my way to Oxford. And then I came here. It was like three weeks before a disaster. Nobody was like paying attention. People are having Corona virus parties, my girlfriend at the time, my girlfriend right now, and she was going to party that night, I was like, Hmm, I’m not quite on board with everything that China did there because, that was a bit overreaching, but I don’t think you should go to a party. I don’t know. I just, it felt like I just stepped into this different role than I was again, like an alien in New York, as Sting would say, like, I was, again, this, this weird guy. I was like telling everybody, please don’t go like, mass gatherings, outside. And like three weeks later, everything shut down. We went to Berlin for a weekend. They ran out of toilet paper and then we came back and we decided to, she has a house in Croatia in like near the Capital. So it was quite in the mountains. It was super nice. So we went there and that’s where I started my publication. So writing daily, I couldn’t leave the house. I stopped drinking alcohol altogether, completely dropped, which when I came back to England was that’s a different story though, but yeah. So I think in hindsight it was scary, but it’s also like, I kind of came forward with myself. I quit my job in China. I started writing every day. I was afraid for my life. So I was just like typing away at that keyboard. Like your fingers to the bone, just like blasting away article after article after, I just, I loved it, but I also fell that I have to make a living out of this. I can’t live on my savings forever. Especially now, there’s so much uncertainty. And I’m in hindsight, I’m so happy I did it because if I was in a nine to five, I don’t think that will work for me. I think this lifestyle just makes me happy or happier. It is challenging. It is intriguing.

[00:12:13] Amardeep: [unintelligible] so there aren’t a change, even from the last few years, it’s quite crazy, right? Because you were working [unintelligible] in China. Then you’ve moved around a little bit and now you’re in London and you’ve got your own business and, you’re running that and you’re growing that and I know it’s doing pretty well. So how did that feel for you that you said imposter syndrome for coming onto the podcast, but going from what you’re doing to now, what you’re doing now, how did you get in the conference to make some of those shifts? Because going from writing to then owning your own business and hiring other people and to reaching out to clients is two different things.

[00:12:50] Toni: Yeah. A hundred percent. And just going to writing, I think the step to writing was harder in a way, because most people, and this is, they probably have your best interest in mind or maybe they don’t, but like most people would tell you there is no money in writing. So like when I leave, when I left China I was to meet my girlfriend’s family for the first time and we were in a long-term relationship, and I met her father and the first thing the guy told me, he’s like, oh, do you know? There’s no money writing. I’m like, oh, I’m not sure about any of this. Like, I don’t need extra support for my fears. But yeah. And then, because it was so overwhelming, you just kind of zoom out. And I guess for some people that that anxiety would become like a crippling factor in their life, but for me, it was like, I just have to, you know, get out of my head and start producing, being more present and in a weird way, I felt more grounded. I felt humbled because like there was zero ego. I was just like striving to survive and that all sounds like so many beautiful things and aspects of my life and also makes you feel capable, but also fearful at the same time, it makes it feel like everything’s possible, but everything is also not perfect at the same time. You might fail tomorrow, but you might not fail tomorrow. So like this thinking about failure or not, just, I don’t know, it became redundant and that made me zoom out and zoom into whatever I fancy doing and, kind of connected with my core more, I guess I always wanted to be a writer and a business owner of sorts and I wanted to create value for others. And this came as a, you know, like when push comes to shove and you just have to do it. This was, this is like on a massive scale of biblical proportions. And I, and I took it as a sign to just go on and do my own thing. And a lot of other things like came out of it. I started sleeping better. I do believe that every human being needs at least seven or eight hours of quality sleep, not just quantity, just not any sleep. I started putting a lot of thought and effort into rest of, of how can I regenerate myself. That makes me feel better. That makes me happier. That makes my work more wholesome. Others thing is like I stopped drinking alcohol altogether, which when I came through England was mental because I don’t know, they feel the same way. It was like on every occasion past breakfast is drinking time. So brunch. Brunch like you have 20 hours zones, but everybody’s going to offer you a drink if you’re in a social setting. And I had to like, come up with excuses, like, why aren’t you drinking? Like, because I’m just not drinking wasn’t good enough. So it had to be a story and people are like, what’s wrong with you? I’m like, I just don’t want out cold right now. And people are like, are you sure you’re okay? And then another thing is like having to drink [unintelligible]. I like, if you’re outside, you’re going to order a drink of sorts, but I also don’t want to drink fuzzy drinks, then mocktails are just like, pretending. I don’t know. It’s still an odd one for me. Although I haven’t had a drink in like, I don’t know, 16 months, 17 months, something like that. So yeah.

[00:16:03] Amardeep: What was the trigger for that change to go completely teetotal?

[00:16:07] Toni: So this is going to sound like a cliche. I do have a good run with new year resolutions. And I stopped smoking in 2014 after being a passion smoker for years, I kind of gave it in a new year resolution. For me it was like, I’m going to decide this and then I’m not going to, you know, think about it again. It’s like just the decision is made, so I’m not going to fuss about it. That’s how you wear yourself down. And if you start thinking about it too much, you’re going to go for the next cigarette or next drink then I, the drinking bit in, I think it was new years, 2020 to 2021 because I already wasn’t really drinking. I mean, for me, drinks were always like a social lubricant of sorts. Like when you go outside, you’d have a drink. I didn’t really want to start drinking in my own living room. That’s kind of felt sad or like at least it wouldn’t make me feel good. And also there is a habit forming habit. So I didn’t want to form that habit in the long run. And the third factor is like, it just wasn’t fun. Like, you know, and I wanted to focus on my own writing, on my own survival and creating my own business, so that’s kind of prevailed and I would find enough exciting, excitement in the business role. So I wouldn’t see it outside of it. If that makes any sense because like most of the times it was terrifying. You just don’t know if you’re going to have bread and money when you wake up the next morning. So the life was already exciting. So when all these three factors collided, I organically, or naturally, I wasn’t drinking already. And then the new year struck, I was like, I’m just going to make a kind of resolution. I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing. And now it’s been, another past new years. We went to 2022 again, so I made another resolution this year as well. I know they don’t work for a lot of people, but for me, because they are slight habits that you just kind of tweak or amplify. I think that that works in that regard. If I try to like lose 40 pounds by summer, I think that would be a bad idea or bad decision. And I’d probably fail, but if I try to you know, just amplify my already made decision, it works.

[00:18:19] Amardeep: Hi everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some, this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side. It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:18:55] Now, like in the life you’ve built now, so you’re doing a workation is the word you used earlier, which you then thought immediately ashamed about. But what is the lifestyle you’re trying to build at the moment where you have your own business and you’re doing writing as part of that business. What does that look like at the moment? How many hours are you working? Is it generally stressful all the time or are you in a good place.

[00:19:15] Toni: I think I’m in a good place. It was, I would say engaging more than stressful. Of course there is you always have this stress factors, just any businesses is like that, you know. From your own internal wants to outside just other people being humans. So there is always a bit of that, but like, I kind of embraced it in a way that I do strive in those environments, maybe because of my upbringing, like it started rough and then it gets better, it got better over time. So maybe that’s a factor in it. But overall, I do like the place where I’m in. I’m grateful. I do feel a bit, I don’t know, like when I came to Mexico, especially this Playa del Carmen, it is overrun by digital nomads. Innovative ideas sounds awesome. Sounds spectacular. I’m just going to be back at [unintelligible] around the world. It’s very on point of the B generation of the sixties. And I do fantasize or romanticize that idea, but then I don’t want to live it, if you know what I mean. I am super happy to have [unintelligible] in London and then go for two weeks, and the part I’m really grateful, is like, I can take my laptop and I can work. Otherwise I would have to be stuck in an office or in a third place. And I would have to seek two weeks off and come. So in a way, this is not a proper holiday. But also, I got an opportunity to actually be here and see some Caribbean sun and enjoy, you know, after work, Coca-Cola at the peach because it’s no cocktails, so that’s nice, but like, I couldn’t quite want to live full time. And I feel a lot of people come here searching for something. You don’t really find on meaning traveling, which I like your, you obviously travelled a lot. I’ve seen a few places. And when you like in your early twenties, It is this exciting idea. And I think everybody has to do it, but after a while, it’s starts being, feeling a bit empty. It’s like innovators, like we still need a base. You need a home, you need something that you can build and something where you can come back. So just being with [unintelligible] 24, 7 for 10, 20, 30 years, and then speaking to those people. And when they’re in their fifties and sixties, I always felt there was like a big part of their life missing, which is, was back home, building an actual home, building a family, building something. So maybe this is a balance that you have to strike between being home and building and the lack of building. I don’t think one or the other to the extreme is ever good. So I, and I think that balance is the best it has ever been in my life because my early twenties were just travel focused and my late twenties are now, you know, more of like, I’m building something, but I’m also going to go on a workation and then an actual holiday as well, sometime this year. So it feels wholesome for the time being. But if that changes, I’ll be more than, you know, happy to embrace that change going in day by day. How is it for you? Like, do you feel like you want to go on a holiday soon?

[00:22:17] Amardeep: It’s interesting because I did a lot of travel before I started doing my own thing. So I would have been to 50 countries if it wasn’t for Corona virus. I think I was when the lockdown came in, I was actually in Botswana and all the flights started getting canceled. The visa started getting rejected and there was a big, and then [unintelligible] and home and let’s say, where there was a legitimate worry that I’ll be stuck in Botswana for several months while not being allowed to be in Botswana technically anymore, because they said, cause they rejected, they said your visas are canceled, you need to leave the country. But then if there was a worry that if there’s a proper lockdown in the UK, like there was in Australia then I wasn’t allowed to be in Botswana, but also wasn’t allowed to be back home, but I got lucky, but that, that was, that was a little bit of a scare.

[00:23:08] Toni: Yeah. How did you get lucky? Like, did you just book a flight and just went to the airport and hope for the best or you have…

[00:23:14] Amardeep: It was really very, very hard to book flights at that time because everybody was trying to book flights to get out and the websites were crashing. The phone lines were overrun and it was when I got to the airport in south, so it’s like through South Africa to get home, and I got an email saying, oh, your flight has been canceled. And it was my original flight. So if I hadn’t got on the flight that I did, I would have been stuck. I would have had to try and work out a way to get home again. So it’s not quite as dramatic as your China story, but…

[00:23:46] Toni: No, it’s still like, it is like, especially like, we all deal with our own problems and they’re the biggest problems for ourselves, for us. So yeah, I can imagine, you know, It is being stuck in a, in a foreign place and you can’t leave and then nobody’s your friend. They’re like, it is a bit, it is a sketch.

[00:24:07] Amardeep: Yeah. Then it’s, people say the same thing with me in terms of digital nomads, I’m like, oh, why don’t you just travel the world? And it’s like, I don’t like, I’m living the life now that I don’t need to escape from and that’s the thing I always come back to is that like mantras is that, build a life that I don’t need to go on another day. I didn’t need to travel because I enjoy what I’ve got here. Like, I’ve got a great set of people around me and I’m very grateful it’s them, hopefully some of them are listening today. And that makes a difference, right? Because a lot of people, I think, who are very attracted to the idea of digital nomadism is because they don’t have this, some of those that security or that safety that I feel where they live or in their home. And I guess what’s kind of different about me is that I, it’s like, you know, right. Like I really enjoy what I do, which means that I’m not needing to count down the days until I go on holiday, which might have been some occasions in the past. Now I still want to see new experiences and still to want to travel, but it’s a want rather than a need. And I think that makes such a difference mentally because it means that when I’m going somewhere, it’s because I really want to experience what’s there rather than I really want to get away from what I’m doing. And there’s this little mindset shift. I think it really matters. And a lot of people I know who were saying, oh, I would travel the world. I would do this, but have you actually done that yet? Do you know what that’s like? And like you said, it’s difficult. It’s not so easy to be in a different country, and before we started the call, Toni was complaining about how many mosquitos had bitten at his legs [crosstalk] You’re working from paradise and just moaning, but it’s true. There’s all these different factors that take you out of the zone, where you can produce your best work and, what’s really meaningful to you. And for some people they’d love that traveling lifestyle. They’d love that. And it’s working out whether it’s, whether you like the actual lifestyle, wherever you like the idea of the lifestyle. And I think for me before we select the idea of the lifestyle, rather than the reality of trying to find wi-fi and trying to find enough signal and finding a comfortable seat. It’s hustle right and trying to plan while moving and working.

[00:26:22] Toni: It is. It is. And then you can’t really relax. Don’t produce your best work and all that. Yeah. I feel like you have to have that like purpose or like at least a sense of self first and then go on a holiday or on a workation because I prepared most of the stuff upfront. And then when I’m here, I’m like just managing stuff. And also this is, I think what I read from Benjamin Hardy, which kind of just like clicked in my head, guy’s a great writer on Medium, by the way. It was that you should manage your energy more than you manage your time. And I think I’ve fell in this fallacy so many times before. It’s just like, I’m going to block like three hours between three and 8:00 PM and 11, because I’m my own boss now, which is like something, it took me a year to be like, okay, you can’t really work when you’re tired. And then if you just do your own stuff in the morning, when you feel the most energetic or when your brain is in the right place you’re just going to like, enjoy your work much more. You’re going to produce more. And that’s what I’m doing right now. So my girlfriend, she kind of sleeps in most days, which is perfect for me. So I wake up at seven, go on and finish most of my day by 11, 12, she wakes up about 10:30. She’s more on a holiday than I am. And then like the whole afternoon, in the evening we can be out and about, which is, which is working well for me. And thank you Benjamin again for reminding me of that simple truth that it did, like create this massive effect on me because you just get more satisfied with your life later because leisure or relaxing afternoon just becomes your afternoon. You don’t have that thing in the back of your head, it’s like, oh, I have that 3 hours blocked in from eight to 11 and I, oh, but I want to do something else. And I think you did mention this before, you also feel that way. You don’t want to work your evenings.

[00:28:06] Amardeep: I said, I don’t want to work my evening, that’s definitely what’s happening at the moment. So you obviously have the same thing is that most of my clients and most of people I work with are LA based. So I’m based in London, obviously. So to me, there’s eight hours behind. So they’re starting their workday, but I want to finish mine. And what I’m working on at the moment is setting those boundaries and setting those expectations in a way where I’ll be working while they’re asleep. It’s delivered to them in the morning and trying to set it around that mindset rather than I’m not going to reply it to you until the next day is instead of being like, oh, when you wake up, all your works been done for you and making them sit through that lens, which I hope will make them more appreciative. And part of it is, for example, I’m thinking of what I’m, going to do is delete my work emails from my phone, because it’s so easy for me to just naturally I’m out and about, and I just, refresh, let’s see, let’s just see if there’s anything there. It’s like, I don’t need to see if an exact, like, I’m not a doctor. It’s very, very unlikely that things are going to blow up, and needs my immediate attention, but it’s hard to let go, because I just said, same position as a business owner where it’s your baby and you, because you enjoy it, but then you don’t want to be, I don’t want to be spitting my mind where I’m with people that I wouldn’t be spending time with or, want to be present with, but in back of my mind thinking, oh, wait, I need to do that. Oh, I need to do that. Or I need to do that. Have you been able to do that? Have you been able to switch off when you are in leisure time?

[00:29:22] Toni: Yeah. Most of I would, I can thank my iPhone. So I recently switched to iPhone full-time from being a Samsung user for so many years. And the little tweak iPhone has is do no disturb mode. So my phone is always, the ringtones off and it isn’t [unintelligible]. So I don’t get any notification. So like, if I want to go in, If I want to look at my email I have to physically click on it and then go through it myself. So that creates a little bit of friction where you don’t get interrupted by email, which was boring for me. I can just leave the phone in another room. And when I do want to handle my email, I’m just going to go and open my email. That is working well for me. For some other people might not, but just creating that extra friction for you. So like it doesn’t come up on your screen ever, and then it won’t ring ever. And good thing that comes from it, like also your phone doesn’t ring and your friends and family and everybody, they do start respecting your boundaries. Not at first, but like after a while they get used to it, and they are like, okay, I’m just going to text him and he’ll reply or call me at his own time, and that is working well for me. Another thing that I would just like to briefly add is a scheduling email. So what I do a lot of times, like I would schedule an email for 9:00 AM next morning, or I would schedule an email for, I don’t know, whatever time you need to schedule them in. So you kind of know that a lot of your email has been taken care of. And I would schedule it in my office hours or my work hours that I’ve predetermined. Usually in the morning, because I feel like I just, I’m the most productive at this time. And then in the afternoon I don’t have to slug it and I just kind of can go out and go out and about.

[00:30:59] Amardeep: So I think my problem is because of the, the social side of things as well. So, and it’s for example, with like family calling and things like that. So my sister lives in Dubai. So the times that they call and I get to speak with my nephew, that’s one thing that’s really important to me. And I don’t wanna miss. But at the same time, like you said it’s quite disruptive because if they’re calling when I’m in the middle of something and it’s about priorities, right? It’s like, well, I don’t want to miss that opportunity to speak to them, but at the same time, it then puts more pressure on me in terms of my work day. And I don’t yet have the great answer for that with like, how do I balance that properly? And it’s something I’m kind of looking into, because if I’m ignoring calls from like to speak to my little baby nephew because I’m busy working, is that really the life I want to live? Is that who I want to be? But at the same time, I can’t bend all the time. So I’m in that gray zone at the moment where I’m trying to look at it better and sometimes I’ll have my phone in airplane mode. Do not disturb mode as you said. And then other times I won’t. So I have that availability. I think one of the problems, me and I don’t know if you have this sorted, I like talking, I like chatting to people. It’s something that I enjoy. Right. So then if I have my phone off all the time, then I don’t have that aspect. And it’s kind of like, it’s a weird personality trait, I guess, where I am quite active. I’m quite chatty. And generally have like, from the nature of being online and having a brand and things like that, I have a lot more messages than I can actually reply to, and I have to prioritize, but then there’s sometimes where a friend will send me a joke or a funny, something funny. And I want to see that straight away. I want to be able to laugh at that and like get involved in the joke and things like that. So, one thing I do for example, is I use like Archiving and WhatsApp. WhatsApp is my way that I talk to them, people that know me in real life and have got stronger bonds with, and it can be quite intimidating sometimes if you’ve got 20, 30 WhatsApp messages to reply to. And what I try to do is archive people, so that once I’ve replied to them, then they’re off my list. And then I can only see the people that I need to reply to because otherwise, some people are cut instantly, some people is, hopefully I’m not shooting myself in the foot here. Somebody’s listening to me right now and I haven’t replied to them for a few days, but you got to do that. Right. I’ve got to try and work out some people I talk to, and it’s a quick answer. I can do that easily. And then other people, it’s more open-ended question. It might take a few more days to reply. And that’s one thing I use for that is that archiving function. So I only see messages and I use the same this way in my inbox as well. In my inbox, only things that are in my inbox, I think that I actually need to do an action on. Everything else is archived in another place where I can’t see it, which makes it way less intimidating in the mornings when I open my emails, because only the new things there. It’s any of the things which I need to reply to that person. Or there’s some action that I want to take. I don’t see all of the other emails, and then after I like scroll down to find the ones that you need an action from me. So I find that helps me quite a bit in terms of just keeping my mind clear.

[00:34:07] Yeah. That’s a good managing system as well, because as you said, when you become an online creator and as soon, if you are in the space for, I don’t know, 12 months, 16 months, you will start receiving a lot of communication from every direction. And at this point, I guess, for you as well, social media is just unusable. It’s like, if I go to my LinkedIn, I kid you not, I have like 200 messages in that inbox. So I’m not going to answer that because it’s so intimidating. It’s like, I can’t build through this. Like, I’m sorry guys. I’m like maybe, maybe one day. It just, it feels like it will take half your day and maybe that’s unfair to a lot of people. I did message you on LinkedIn and I am, I’m sorry for that. It’s just like, it’s physically almost impossible to just go through everything. So you do have to prioritize. And for me it works that I, when I feel social, I will go out and go, you know, text my friends or reply to my messages. They do pile up in your WhatsApp as well, especially if you’re in the groups. If you have a group of friends, that’s going to like pile up to a hundred messages in two hours, if you just like briefly don’t check your phone, like, boom, you have a hundred or something.

[00:35:15] What is one shift you think people listening today could make that would make that positive difference in their lives?

[00:35:19] Toni: So this is something that has created a tremendous difference for my own headspace. It was wishing happiness to your enemies, or somebody that’s annoying you or somebody that you don’t like. It’s just like being, visual thing, of being like, honestly appreciative of your enemy and then wishing them all the best. Even though it sounds counter-intuitive, it just frees up so much of your mental bandwidth. It’s just like, it is a power move in your own head. It’s like, you are not controlled by envy. You are not controlled by hatred. You’re not controlled by this darker, you know, devices of your own existence. If you just wish them, like honestly, to be happy and to sort their own lives. And I used to meditate on that. I would practice it every day. I would just find like people I disliked the most and then for, it takes 30 seconds of your life, and you just wish them all the best in your head. You don’t have to call them or tell them, or be up front with it. Just for your own good, and I just, I just never felt happier after that. It just felt this, it was this mental shift that worked very well for me, because I feel envy is something that can consume you and staying on top of that, or hatred is insane on top of that, this was one of the coping mechanism for me. And also like the next time you actually see that person, the interaction is a bit better and you’re a bit less on your toes. You’re a bit less stressed out by their, you know, existence. So I think it wholesome, it will create this whole some effect.

[00:36:51] Amardeep: It’s been a pleasure to chat to you today, Toni. Where can the people listening today, hear more about you and what you’re up to?

[00:36:56] Toni: So I’m basically present a Medium. tonikoraza.com or you can visit our agency, madx.digital. I just thought digital doesn’t have dot com or anything. It’s one of the new domains. So you can check out our work or my personal work. I do write a lot about marketing mostly, and business as a topic. So if you’re into that comment and check us out,

[00:37:20] Amardeep: And then the final thing to end up on is, what’s one small thing that’s brought you joy recently?

[00:37:25] Toni: This new year’s resolution is like, I started meditating for at least five minutes a day. It’s one of those micro habits.

[00:37:32] Amardeep: Do you mean meditating or medicating?

[00:37:36] Toni: Meditating.

[00:37:37] Amardeep: Meditating. Okay.

[00:37:38] Toni: Medicating for five, that’d be, that’d be fun. That’s like having a drink. Now I started, so I did flirt with meditation on an off sporadically, and I never actually got the benefit of it. You just do it for a longer term. And I know this comes as a cliche for a lot of people, but I just like, I would break, I break my afternoons now with like five minutes, like just detaching myself from everywhere. I have this app, it’s like a meditation timer that just keeps a streak and a score. And I’m doing well with streaks. I go an 800 Duolingo street and I’m having like, it is January 20. So I have 19 day streak of meditation and I do feel more grounded overall. And it also does break up my afternoon where I feel the low energy setting in. I kind of just go even lower with a five, 10 minutes. And usually the five minutes is the 15, 20, 30 minutes, which is, I guess, the point of having that micro habit. So that has brought a lot of joy to me.

[00:38:37] Amardeep: If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all of the links in the show notes.

Thank you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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Welcome to episode 47 of the Mindful & Driven podcast! It’s all about how to not lose sight of what really matters whilst chasing your dreams.

Episode 47’s guest is Rebecca Thompson. She’s the founder of Ecosy Travel. She’s made several pivots in her life from working with the British Civil Service to working as a Senior Policy Adviser for Environment Advocacy Association to being her own boss and founder. Each of these decisions was hard in its own way and by listening today, you’ll understand how she made these decisions.

I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation! I’d love it if you could subscribe, leave me a review and follow me on social channels.

• You can find all my work and socials here: http://amardeep.co
• Download my free Anti-Burnout Toolkit here: http://antiburnout.mindfuldriven.com
• United for Global Mental Health:  https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support
• Find more about Rebecca: https://ecosytravel.co.uk/
• Follow her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebecca-thompson-52417021/

Topics discussed in this episode:

• How to overcome toxic thoughts.
• How to deal with negative thoughts.
• How to overcome negative thoughts.
• Why it’s important to deal with your negative thoughts.
• How to handle negativity.
• Why it’s important to go good to others.
• Why it’s important to be good to others.
• How to be more forgiving towards yourself.
• How to be more mindful about your thoughts.
• How to manage your negative thoughts.
• How to manage your toxic thoughts.
• How to manage your thoughts.
• How to deal with negativity.
• Why it’s important to deal with your own negativity.

Keynotes:

• Introduction (0:00)
• Rejecting an idea (1:40)
• Taking the first step (3:50)
• We are who we are (8:43)
• Giving your full capacity (10:20)
• Listen to yourself more (13:02)
• Finding something that works for you (17:56)
• Keeping structure and finding balance (21:24)
• A successful lifestyle (26:55)
• Being more aware (28:12)

—————————————————-———————————————

Intro Music:
“Himalayas” by Mona Wonderlick — bit.ly/youtube-monawonderlick
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0
Free download: bit.ly/himalayas-download

—————————————————-———————————————

Transcript

[00:00:00] Rebecca: Doing
things for other people, and that’s so important and it can be really
empowering as well, because as soon as you sort of realize that you’re only
doing stuff for other people, you kind of can drop a fair bit of resentment and
negativity that you have. And it, it can really shift your way of perceiving
the world if you’re actually doing stuff because you want to do it.

[00:00:29] Amardeep: Welcome
to the Mindful and Driven Podcast, where we help you to not lose sight of
what’s really important whilst chasing your dreams. Today’s guest is Rebecca
Thompson. She’s the founder of Ecosy Travel. She’s made several pivots in her
life from working with the British Civil Service to working as a Senior Policy
Adviser for Environment Advocacy Association to being her own boss and founder.
Each of these decisions was hard in its own way and by listening today,  you’ll understand how she made these
decisions.  And I really hope you enjoy listening.

[00:01:01] Welcome to Mindful and Driven, Rebecca. It’s a pleasure to
have you here.

[00:01:04] Rebecca: It’s
great to be here. Really nice to see you.

[00:01:06] Amardeep: So, how
are we know each other is that we’ve both been to university together in Bath
and you lived in the floor below me and you also happened to be best friends
with somebody who lived on my floor. So it’s like double connection there, and
then because of that, we did the same course as well, triple connection. And
then we both went our own ways after university. And it’s been quite a while
since we’ve caught up. And it’s quite funny how different our lives are now
compared to what we thought they would be back when we were in university
together. How I would like to start off with is what’s some advice, you’ve
heard that you really disagree with?

[00:01:40] Rebecca: I think
particularly when we kind of looked back to when we were at university, I think
the objective for most people was to kind of get that really like good, secure
job. You kind of set for life in some way. And I think it’s really something
that belongs to a different generation almost. I think now. I feel like that’s
so not the way forward, but you still hear so many people or it still feels
like there’s this residual feeling that that’s what you should be doing, or
people really still expect that of you. And if you sort of reject that idea
that you’re doing something wrong, or you’ve kind of missed the point, or, you
know, when you would give up a stable job, that’s kind of getting you a good
income, you must have like, lost it a bit in some way. So yeah, I think, I
think trying to get people to really just like strive for that stable job,
that’s kind of like the tick box, you’re done. Just leaves you with years and
years of, I don’t know, kind of, what’s the word? Just, almost done this, I
think. It’s how I would feel. And I think there are certainly people out there
who, you know, they want that because that lets them just kind of do the other
stuff they wanted to do in their free time, but when I kind of think about not
wanting to sort of work to live necessarily, but that your life kind of feeds
into the work you do, it’s got a better ring to it almost.

[00:03:26] Amardeep: Yeah.
And most people who went to university, will have ended up being investment
bankers or asset managers and going into that kind of field. And I think it’s
funny because at the time, many people seemed really interested in it. But it
wasn’t how much it was, because they were really interested in the topic, and
if they couldn’t make any money in it, would they still be that interested?
Probably not. So it was almost being led by the money in that way, and I think
it happened to a lot of us who then went into banking, or consulting, or
whatever it is. But you took a bit of a different part from the beginning, right?
So you went into the civil service because that was something you believed in.
So could you talk about that decision?

[00:03:58] Rebecca: Yeah, I
think it’s interesting. I think going to university to study economics, most
people are there for the money. And I think even when I kind of made that
decision to do economics. At the time, it was because I thought that’s the best
way to get a job where you can make some money. And then I think the more I,
sort of thought about it, got exposed to more people, more ideas, I really knew
that that wasn’t going to work for me. I think I’ve always been led by wanting
to do something that I felt had some meaning to it, or I was helping people.
And I think that’s not in itself enough. I think lots of people can a bit get
misled by just wanting to feel like they’re doing something good, cause it
doesn’t always work out for the people who you think you’re trying to help.
Yeah. I think that’s kind of what led me down the path I went straight away and
I think working in the civil service, so I did the fast stream, which is the
British civil service kind of graduate program in economics. I think that’s
absolutely brilliant, and you are surrounded by loads of really bright,
motivated people who are kind of there for that same reason, because they want
to try and do something good and try and help people and, the challenge for me
was that you’re kind of working with the government that you don’t agree with.
For me, that was my situation. I think that’s lots of people’s situation in the
civil service and your job is to be neutral, and I think I got to a point where
I didn’t want to be neutral anymore and I’ve learnt so much, and I think I was
just ready to do something different. And I think, yeah, kind of having that
motivation to do something that I felt was genuinely useful. I kind of almost
got to a point where I was doing what the government kind of wanted to see
rather than what would actually create the best policy. So it’s tricky. I
suppose it all came down to sort of how I felt I could have the most impact, I
guess.

[00:06:10] Amardeep: And
then when you left the civil service, is that when you did your master’s, or is
it, did you have another job before that? And you mentioned before we started
recording that you did your master’s in part, because you were scared to just
completely leave your job and you thought it was a way to do it in a respectful
way. And could you talk about that? Because I think that’s quite interesting.

[00:06:28] Rebecca: I think
a lot of what I sort of did in my career path was quite led by what I felt was
expected of me in a lot of ways. And so. I definitely have like a strong sense
of loyalty. I would say to people that I’ve worked with and kind of the idea of
a good job and that stable job in lots of ways. So, I think when I kind of was
thinking about leaving, it really felt like I was doing something wrong. So
yeah, in some ways it almost felt like the master’s were some kind of excuse I
had to generate to be like, look, I have a real reason for leaving. And to be
honest, when I left, I left as a career break. I didn’t even, you know, go the
whole [unintelligible] to do the master’s. I was like, oh, I’m going doing a
career break halfway through the master. I was like, by the way, I’m not coming
back. And that, I think it just kind of shows like that kind of step to
actually reject that idea that you have to be doing this kind of conventional
career can be really hard if that’s what you’re used to, or, you know, my mum
worked in the same job for over 30 years, for her whole career. And I just
guess that’s what I was exposed to, or wasn’t exposed to kind of these kind of
more interesting career paths that take lots of turns and you can just, halfway
through studying something completely different. I kind of generated the idea.
I already knew I wanted to do something quite different, but yeah, the master’s
was the first step to kind of do that and I don’t regret it at all. I think I
met some amazing people, the courses, cause I went to SOAS, it’s the School of
Oriental and African Studies and there’s just absolutely brilliant teachers
they’re, brilliant people there, so it definitely helped me realize a lot of
things about what I want to do and what is the good and impactful way to be
doing what you’re trying to do in putting something good back into the world, I
suppose.

[00:08:37] Amardeep: So do
you think in a way you did the right thing, but for the wrong reasons? So
you’re doing it just to escape your job potentially, but then because you did
that, then you then met people who then helped you along the path you’re on
now.

[00:08:48] Rebecca:
Absolutely. And I think, you know, at every stage in our career, we sort of are
who we are and we have those ideas that we have about what a good job looks like,
so it’s all a learning process. And I think, you know, I probably wouldn’t be
here now, if I hadn’t done that. So as that I think I was kind of first having
those conversations with people about, you know, some friends who were not
flying anymore because of environmental reasons. So, and, you know, that’s,
that’s a huge part. That is one of my kind of key businesses now, so I think
you never know where things are going to take you, so all you can really do is
the next step for that feels like it fits with what you want to do. And it will
take you eventually down the right road, I think.

[00:09:42] Amardeep: Yeah.
And I think the thing I always say to people is that, if you know you’re not
happy in what you’re doing, then the most important thing is to experiment to
try something different, because you don’t know what it’s going to be. Like I
said, like, you didn’t know that was going to be the master’s. But because you
tried it, that then opened your eyes to other opportunities, and then you did
other things because of that. So if you’re in a rut and try something
different, it doesn’t necessarily matter so much what exactly it is in some
ways I think, because you might try it, maybe you decide you don’t enjoy it,
then you can try something else and that’s okay. And so after SOAS, you then
went to work for another company, right? And that was in the renewable sector
and something you believed in, but you then left that again because it wasn’t
quite aligning with you. So how did that process go? Cause I can imagine if you
then discovered that you think you really believe in this topic and helping the
environment, but then you’ve got a job that essentially it should be doing
everything that you thought it was meant to be doing in terms of your meaning,
and then it didn’t give you that, was that a hard process for you?

[00:10:39] Rebecca: It
definitely was and I think, you know, even before I got that job, I already
knew that having an office job didn’t really work that well for me. I think I
already knew that I wanted to try different things. Maybe do something more
practical that felt more creative. And that was really one of the motivations
for leaving the civil service in the first place. So to get another full-time
job, where I was doing that again, I think that wasn’t already an element of is
this the right thing, but because it did tick so many boxes of what I really
care about and it was, you know, it was a great job. I was really happy when I
got it. And I was working with a brilliant team which, honestly I think can
make or break a job. So I was there still for like a year and a half or a bit
longer before I decided to leave, and, you know, the, my CEO was so supportive
of the fact that I did want to try other stuff, so before I left, I was working
four days a week, but I still didn’t feel like I had the time or the capacity
to really explore the other things I wanted to explore. And I think that’s
because in a job like that, where it is sort of in an area that you’re
passionate about, it’s hard not to give it everything you’ve got. So I would be
working really long hours for that job, even though there’s so much stuff I
wanted to do for myself also in that space, but my own ideas, but I felt so
kind of committed and loyal to sort of having said like, I’m going to do the
stuff for you. I had the responsibilities for those areas. My CEO really
trusted me to sort of run the team. So I never really felt comfortable to not
give it my all either, which I think is a real challenge for a lot of people
who are really driven, that they can’t do things halfway to give themselves the
capacity to do that other stuff they want to do, which makes it really
challenging to get that balance as well.

[00:12:54] Amardeep: How did
the conversation with your CEO go? Were you scared to ask for four days or is
it something that they suggested themselves?

[00:13:00] Rebecca:
[unintelligible]. I’m always nervous in these situations, but I would say it
went well. They, I think they probably could already sense that I was feeling
this. Like I talked to them about my idea sometimes. They’d be like, that’s
brilliant. So good. So I don’t think that it was a difficult conversation in
the end cause they were so supportive when I was talking to them, but I was
still nervous. I think all of these things that fell outside of the normal job
made me nervous for some reason, because I think I had such an expectation in
my head of like, oh, you work really hard to get like your exams and you know,
your a levels, whatever, to get to a good university, you get to a good
university and you work really hard to get a good degree. And then from the
good degree, you get a good job and then that’s it. Now I haven’t really sort
of thought through the process much more than that sort of when we knew each other
and you kind of get that good job and you’re like, oh, that’s not making me
that happy. So yeah, I think you’re right. It is so much about experimenting
and you can’t know what you need, but you know, it’s about that gut feeling.
And when it is sort of outside of your comfort zone, those first conversations
can be quite nerve wracking, but you’ve got to just listen to yourself more.
And I think that is the hardest things that often we’re quite led by what we
think other people want with us. But, you know, going into that conversation,
my CEO, she was so supportive and I was so worried that she’d be like hurt and
let down and would turn around and be like, what are you doing? Like you’re
meant to work for me. And that’s just, that’s not the situation, I think.
People, you know, are supportive as much as they can be, and, you know, if it
doesn’t work for a company to let you work four days, they won’t do it. But if
they really value what you’re doing and they want to try and make it work,
though, you know, you can see if that works and gives you that capacity to do
more of what you want to do.

[00:15:01] Amardeep: I had
the same experience with my boss when I left my job. It’s that I was kind of
worried that they’d be like, I’ve been there for seven years, so I was the
fifth longest serving employee. But they were really supportive, so that we
understand why you’re doing what you’re doing, and we wish you the best in it.
Like, obviously they want you to stay, but we don’t want you to stay if that
stopping you from achieving what you want to do. And it was just such a great
conversation, because like I said, you sometimes expect them to be hurt,
whereas it’s more about we’re excited for you, like they’ve known you for so
long, they’ve supported you and often the most people aren’t like that, like
evil [unintelligible]. You sometimes think, right? That they care about people.
They can see you’re going to do something that makes you happy. They’re going
to want to help you. And it’s going to be annoying for them to replace you with
like that, but I think for some people, it’s the whole thing. They feel worse
about keeping you against your will or by manipulating in that way. So having
that conversation, it’s just something, which you don’t know until you do it.
And you might find that people support you much more than you expect.

[00:16:02] Rebecca: Yeah, I
think that’s so true. Even when it kind of comes to now sort of moving into the
travel tech space, which is so not my area of expertise coming from
sustainability, which is, you know, what I’m really passionate about and know
about. People are so helpful, and I’ve learned so much in the last couple of
months compared to, I don’t know, the last few years, because it was almost
working in the space that I already had those expertise in, so I was the person
that maybe, someone could talk to about the kind of particular area I was
working in. And I had that knowledge, and then it’s going to a space where, you
know, you get to have loads of conversations and network with people that have
loads of amazing knowledge that you can get out of them. And it’s such a fun
place to be in, to be learning so much, even though it’s also a bit nerve
wracking, kind of doing a venture in a totally new industry. It’s such a great
place, and if you don’t enjoy that process of learning and doing something new,
you know, maybe it’s not the right thing to be doing either.

[00:17:12] Amardeep: Hi
everyone. I hope you’re enjoying the episode so far. I want to take a quick
break to ask you to check in with yourself. There’s many people struggling with
balance and it’s nothing to be ashamed about. It’s tips that my guests might
share can hopefully help you along the way, but if you already feel overwhelmed
or burnt out, it’s probably best that you ask somebody for help too. For some,
this might be a friend or family member, while others might feel like they have
nobody they can talk to. If you’re one of these people, check out the link in
the show notes, it’s for United for Global Mental Health. They’ve got health
plans all across the world, with people willing to listen on the other side.
It’s important to let somebody know how you’re feeling. Now, back to the show.

[00:17:48] Could explain a bit more about what you do now? Like what
exactly you do and your businesses that what they are.

[00:17:53] Rebecca: Yeah.
So, I’ve just got a young innovators award from innovate UK [unintelligible].
So that’s the innovation service kind of attached to the UK government and
that’s for a business I’m working on, which I’m actually solo founder for, and
it’s called Ecosy Travel and it’s in the fairly early stages of development.
I’m building the website at the moment and it’s basically your kind of travel
booking platform, but for green travel. So it’s going to focus on sort of train
and ferry journeys across Europe. It’ll be all kind of eco accommodation and
that kind of dynamic packaging, which is so you, as a customer will be able to
put in all of your requirements and, you know, you get to package it up, how
you like find the trains that suit you, you know, have a proper comparison of
all the different accommodation available. Which just doesn’t really exist at
the moment. And I think it’s going to be a challenge to get there and, you
know, creating that functionality at first, it looks like it’s going to be
really difficult given how the transport, well the travel industry is
structured. It’s really exciting. So, yeah, that’s, that’s the first one. And
then the second one is actually, because of another passion of mine, which is
gardening. And that’s something I discovered a couple of years ago when I
wasn’t very happy in my job, I think, and I was really looking for that
practical thing that I could do that just made me feel better. And gardening is
something that I honestly can be feeling my worst. And I’ll just start, I’ll do
some gardening for half an hour. whether I’m now doing it professionally, sort
of for a client, or if I’m at my community garden or my own garden. And after
just half an hour, I just feel so calm. It’s incredible. So that kind of
combines the sustainability and the gardening, and it’s going to be an app
that’s called carbon garden and basically for anyone with access to a garden
space, you can basically be able to use the app to implement certain practices
that help to store as much carbon as you can in the soil and in the vegetation
you’re growing, which from a climate perspective, can have huge benefits if
you’re kind of multiplying it across all of the gardens that we have out there.
So yeah, that’s what I’m really psyched about, that I’m actually co-founding
with my partner. So that’s another fun one.

[00:20:41] Amardeep:
[unintelligible] quickly mention the gardening there because I think sometimes
people think they have to do traditional ways that make you calm. Right? Some
people think you have to sit there for an hour and do meditation, or you have
to do yoga or whatever it is. And I don’t think that’s true. It’s you find that
activity that works for you and that gardening works for you. Gardening works
for many people as well. So if you find that you really struggled to sit there
and meditate, then try other things. The whole thing about experimentation
again, is that there isn’t one way to find calmness or to destress. You can
find it in different ways and you’ve got two businesses. How’s your time split
across them? Is it something which is quite fluid or is it, you try to keep
structure with that?

[00:21:23] Rebecca: I’d say
it’s very fluid. So, because I’m doing the young innovators program with the
travel business, that’s getting a lot more of my time at the moment. And I
think when I first started it, I was like, oh, well use that program and
implement that structure just to both of them. The equal time and just treat it
like I’ve got that sort of program attached to both of them, but actually,
because there is so much support in this kind of year period attached to that
one business, I kind of, I’m getting a lot of traction there and I want to just
really make the most of it. So. I’ve sort of got lots of motivation around that
one. And I’m just trying to grab that and push ahead with it. And I think it
goes in waves as well. So with the carbon gardening business, I do more of the
sort of, almost sort of in my head, softer work, which is the reset and kind of
thinking around how best to design the different principles to do that carbon
storage with the gardening and just sort of, because I do lots of gardening, I
work at my community permaculture garden, and so I’m having lots of
conversations with people that work in the area, gathering information like
that. Whereas my partner, he comes from a FinTech background. He does product
development and he’s leading on the actual tech side of things with that. So I
think, I feel like that one, I can do more in waves, whereas the travel tech
business, where I’m the solo founder, is really on me, so I think that’s why
I’m really kind of trying to dedicate as much time as possible as I can to that
one at the moment.

[00:23:20] Amardeep: And do
you find it hard to balance that where you’ve got two different businesses that
you care a lot about as well, as you mentioned before, there’s so many other
things that interest you. How do you stop that from overwhelming you’re working
too hard?

[00:23:31] Rebecca: It’s not
easy, I think. I mean, also in between really kicking things off with these
businesses, I did have about a year where I sort of quit my job and I was like,
I’m taking this time to really think about what I want to do, and luckily I had
this sort of freedom to do that. So, you know, loads of random projects. So I
got cast in a film where I had a dance and acting role. So it was doing loads
of work on that, which is really exciting. I was learning aerial silks. I don’t
know if you know what that is, but it’s almost a kind of dark circus skill.
Doing lots of gardening. And I think I’ve had like a nice amount of time to
really explore different things and feel creative and discover what I really
want to spend my time doing. So I’m also feeling quite confident in kind of
where I am now, and I’m not doubting it, which I think can be a real problem
when you’re at risk of feeling overwhelmed, but you’re like, I’m doing all of
this work and I don’t even know if it’s the right thing that I should be doing.
So I think that really helps. And then I think it is tricky not to just put too
much time into these things, but there’s almost a balance where you’re like, I
do need to work really hard on this at the moment. And I’m kind of okay with
that. And I think I do have a good awareness of my energy levels. So I’ll have
days where I can just do lots of work and because I’m working for myself, I
think I can just listen to that kind of energy level and decide what to focus
on based on that. So, I mean, today, I actually felt really sort of low energy,
so I had my meeting this morning for an hour with sort of my mentor as part of
the young innovators program. And then I had a nap. And then, you know, we’re
recording this now and I’m feeling more energized and I’m probably going to do
a fair bit of work this evening. So it’s listening to your body as well, making
sure you are able to notice if you are feeling overworked and doing something
about it, not just being like, I’m feeling really overworked, but I’ve still
got to get all this done. So, yeah, and it is, you know, knowing that I’ve
found the gardening and that if I’m not feeling good, I can go and do that, and
it just makes me feel so much calmer. It’s great to have all these things in
your back pocket. And sometimes that will be meditation or you know, for some
people it’s dancing. I know you do some dance as well, but you know, that’s not
like a. peaceful activity necessarily, but it can be just as meditative as
anything else because you know, you’re really releasing lots of pent up energy
and that can be so useful to feel, like you can take on the world a bit more.

[00:26:33] Amardeep:
Everybody listening can’t hire me to energize them. I know I have that effect
on some people, but. What’s the successful lifestyle look for you in the
future? Like what are you building towards or how would you like to manage your
life?

[00:26:44] Rebecca: It’s
interesting. I think it almost can change depending on how I’m feeling. I mean,
one thing that I know I love is travel. Me and my partner have actually been
talking about buying an electric van and doing out the back and, you know, we
can both work remotely. So I think what we might be doing next is doing more
traveling, which is really exciting. But I think when I really think of my
future, something amazing that I’d love is to have like a bit of land and, you
know, be able to do something like rewilding projects on it and live there and,
you know, feel much more in nature because I mean, I’m from London, I’ve lived
here my whole life and it, as a city, can just be overwhelming. But yeah, I
think it’s hard not to get caught up in like traditional ideas of success
sometimes. And it is useful just to try and remember, like, what would you
actually love to do in the future? It’s like, I’d love to just be in nature.
And, you know, you don’t need to overdo your kind of success story to achieve
that, and it’s kind of managing your own expectations of what you want as well.

[00:27:57] Amardeep: Along
those lines, for the people listening today, what mindset shift would you
suggest to them that you think could really help them?

[00:28:03] Rebecca: I think
that one thing that’s really helped me recently is being more aware of when I
want to do something because I want to do it or because I think that it’s,
what’s expected of me and really trying to tune in more to my own once or kind
of my own voice in some way, and trying to get rid of some of those ideas and
expectations and yeah, doing things for other people. And that’s so important
and it can be really empowering as well, because as soon as you sort of realize
that you’re only doing stuff for other people, you kind of can drop a fair bit
of resentment and negativity that you have, and it, it can really shift your
way of perceiving the world if you’re actually doing stuff because you want to
do it. So yeah, definitely that would be, be my piece of advice.

[00:28:57] Amardeep: It’s
like you said, [unintelligible] sometimes you do things because you think it’s
expected of us, even when the other people don’t always expect it of us. So we
think I’ll whip through this because somebody else wants us to. But if we
actually ask them to say, oh, I’m not enjoying this, it doesn’t really make me
happy, then they’ll be okay, cool. You can do something else instead. Right?

[00:29:13] Rebecca: It’s so
true. I mean, everything we do is based on just how we’re perceiving the world.
So yeah. I mean, there’s also kind of a question of, can we just decide to
perceive it differently if we’ve got a really negative outlook on things? Can
we just sort of try and shift that in different ways to be like, you know,
maybe there is a bit more positivity out there than what I’m able to see in
this moment. So, yeah, I think definitely we’re thinking about.

[00:29:46] Amardeep: It’s
been great to catch up Rebecca, where can people hear more about you and your businesses?

[00:29:50] Rebecca: The
website for Ecosy Travel is up, but you know, not, not fully formed or launched
yet, but people can sign up to hear more about all of that. And it’s
ecosytravel.co.uk. I’m really happy for people to connect with me on LinkedIn
as well. I’d say that’s a great place to keep up to date with whatever up to,
so that’s Rebecca Joan Thompson.

[00:30:12] Amardeep: And
then the final thing I ask all my guests is what’s one small thing that’s
brought you joy recently?

[00:30:17] Rebecca: I
recently got back from a couple of weeks in Guernsey, so it was amazing to
escape London for a little bit. The people that don’t know Guernsey, it’s a
tiny island in the channel in between the UK and France and in the middle of
January, I went surfing. And it was freezing cold and I had a wetsuit and head
boots and gloves on, and it was just so refreshing and amazing. And since I’ve
got back, I’ve started turning the shower to cold for a few seconds before I
get out, and that’s just so energizing and I’m loving it. So I’d go with that.

[00:31:00] Amardeep: If
you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, I’d love it If you could leave me a five
star review, it really helps get the message out further. Wherever you’re
listening, it would be awesome If you could subscribe and share in your social
media channels. If you want to see more of my work and advice, you can find all
of the links in the show notes.

Thank
you again for listening and I hope you have a lovely day.

Amar is a coach, podcast host and writer. He helps ambitious people to grow without burning out. His articles have been read millions of times and he’s interviewed founders of companies such as Netflix and Twitter.

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